What my DON said about getting rid of LPN's

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Barbara Rose

71 Posts

I was told the same thing back in 1980 when I started LVN school. I then continued to RN school, realized I wasn't ahead anyway, and am still working on getting a BSN so I can be a real nurse. That was now 20 years ago, and I am still the same nurse I was then. LVN and RN knowledge are different, but LVN's with years of experience can (and some are) much better than RN's I know. I prefer some LVN's to care for me rather than RN's, it is in the nurse folks, not necessarily the education. I for one am for all the education you can get but the most important thing is the person behind the title and their committment to the profession as a whole. This may never take place anyway with the nursing shortage like it is now. Sooooo, don't worry about it!!!

CEN35

1,091 Posts

Specializes in ER, PACU, OR.

Ok I always seem not to be ale to comprehend this stupid rivalry between LPN's and RN's. What a joke! Like there is any reason for rude replies and outragious statements?

I have met some stupid, I mean worm IQ RN's! I have also met some LPNs that are just unbeleivable....I mean way beyond some RN's in knowledge. Just like many of you have met or dealt with what appears to be an incompetent doc? or a doc that does not have his thinking cap on straight.

Anyways Sheryl, In Ohio if you are an LPN already, the requirements are less. You only have to go through one 1st year class. That class is pharmacology, and drug dosage, administrationa and calculation. The you only have to take the second year of the ADN program.

Have a nice day all, whether your rude or not! :) Somebody has tp spread the sunshine! :)

Rick

Jason-ACNP

62 Posts

Ladies, ladies.... go easy here :)

I agree that LPNs should not take certain courses that teach skills they have mastered as an LPN (i.e. making beds, inserting foley caths, giving injections, etc).

However, I also feel that they should NOT spend any less time in the ADN program than what the current standards call for. While a LPNs experiences will enhance their education, these experiences should not be regarded as a ticket to an "easier" or "faster" track. Why? One word: STANDARDS.

Many have said (including myself) that nursing is viewed as a vocational job (vs. a professional career), because the majority of RNs in this country do not hold the BSN degree. Unfortunate? Of course. Yet, education is the standard by which nurses are measured. The concept of the “slippery slope” is introduced when standards are manipulated. If we stray from the principles of the RN educational track, where to we stop? It opens the gate for more and more manipulation.

Furthermore, there are significant differences in the education of the LPN and the RN that gives support to the LPNs adhering to a two- year track. The scope of practice of the RN is considerably wider than the LPN (i.e. ER, critical care). Thus, the LPN could take alternative courses that would further enhance their career. It would certainly make them a more viable candidate for a coveted position (vs. a new-grad RN).

There is no question that some LPNs outperform some RNs every day of the week. Furthermore, I value the contributions that LPNs make. But again, education is the standard by which nurses are measured. When the LPN graduates from the RN program, she/he can say with confidence, “I faced the trials and tribulations of nursing school (including the sacrificed of time), instead of saying, “I fast tracked my way through school”. Anything less than a solid, two-year curriculum (minimum) further undermines the legitimacy of a career whose image has been tarnished greatly.

Specializes in Peds Homecare.
:D ok everybody calm down, please. I went to LPN school in 1979..In the next year after I graduated it was mentioned that they wanted to do away with LPN's. I was also told that the plan was to grandfather the current LPN's to the equvilant of a 2yr. degree RN and from then on the requirement to be a nurse would be a four yr. degree. This was a thing being pushed by the ana. Alot of the hospitals did try to go totally RN, but it was an experiment in futility. In my state it just didn't work. And guess it was a flop alot of other places too. The reasoning behind the grandfathering was to do something with us LPN's that would technically be written, regulated, out of a job. Because it was an idea from the ana, and not from the powers that be it never happened. I've been an LPN for 21yrs and have never had any problems finding a job. I don't know if this will ever happen since the ana is not the guiding force of the nursing profession. The ana seems to do alot of things that make our fellow nurses,RN's mad. I have seen numerous posts on this bb from RN's that want nothing to do with the ana. On the other hand some RN's think it is wonderful. They don't even recgnize my profession as existing, so I have nothing good or bad to say about them. But please don't everybody start fighting again.. :D :D :D
Specializes in Peds Homecare.
:rolleyes: Sorry I left something out. Every nurse would be an RN...either a 2yr. degree RN or a 4yr. degree RN. LPN's would no longer exist. Sorry I screwed it up in my other post. It has been so long and it never happened I forgot some of the details. So anyway lets all stop being angry and stick together...God knows we all need all the friends and support we can to get through this mess that the ceo's and insurance companies made. :D

chrn

37 Posts

I don't know about where you are, but in Ma from what I've been told, there are no credits for the knowledge an LPN has, you have to start from scratch and do the 2 year program.

Most colleges now have "ladder programs". A practicing LPN will have to take the general education requirements (English, sociology, etc.) and then go into the RN track clinicals-so you don't have to start with "bedmaking 101". Many LPN's feel as you do -that after many years of practice they know as much as any RN. This may be very true regarding clinical activities. If you haven't taken the other college courses in general education, you may not realize how much that kind of knowledge affects your work and your practice. Just my 2 cents...as an LPN for 13 years who went on for ADN and now looking at BSN. Cindy

Q.

2,259 Posts

Specializes in LDRP; Education.
Originally posted by Future LPN Sheryl:

fiestynurse, I got this info from my DON at the Nursing Home where I work.

Why does it seem impossible? Let's say an LPN who has been one for many years, has the same knowledge as an RN except for the few things LPN's can't do that an RN can. Why can't the LPN just take the courses that she/he needs to know to be an RN? :confused:

I don't know about where you are, but in Ma from what I've been told, there are no credits for the knowledge an LPN has, you have to start from scratch and do the 2 year program. :( :(

I want everyone to know that I'm not trying to start a fight, I'm just wondering why? I think anything is possible, laws change all the time. :) :)

I see what you are saying - but really, being an RN is alot more than the technical skills, even if you know all there is to know about them - there is still alot more to an RN than just psychomotor skills - I would have to agree that to be an RN from an LPN you need to take the whole course of study. They are very different.

Brownms46

1 Article; 2,394 Posts

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by Jason-ACNP:

Ladies, ladies.... go easy here :)

I agree that LPNs should not take certain courses that teach skills they have mastered as an LPN (i.e. making beds, inserting foley caths, giving injections, etc).

However, I also feel that they should NOT spend any less time in the ADN program than what the current standards call for. While a LPNs experiences will enhance their education, these experiences should not be regarded as a ticket to an "easier" or "faster" track. Why? One word: STANDARDS.

Many have said (including myself) that nursing is viewed as a vocational job (vs. a professional career), because the majority of RNs in this country do not hold the BSN degree. Unfortunate? Of course. Yet, education is the standard by which nurses are measured. The concept of the “slippery slope” is introduced when standards are manipulated. If we stray from the principles of the RN educational track, where to we stop? It opens the gate for more and more manipulation.

Furthermore, there are significant differences in the education of the LPN and the RN that gives support to the LPNs adhering to a two- year track. The scope of practice of the RN is considerably wider than the LPN (i.e. ER, critical care). Thus, the LPN could take alternative courses that would further enhance their career. It would certainly make them a more viable candidate for a coveted position (vs. a new-grad RN).

There is no question that some LPNs outperform some RNs every day of the week. Furthermore, I value the contributions that LPNs make. But again, education is the standard by which nurses are measured. When the LPN graduates from the RN program, she/he can say with confidence, “I faced the trials and tribulations of nursing school (including the sacrificed of time), instead of saying, “I fast tracked my way through school”. Anything less than a solid, two-year curriculum (minimum) further undermines the legitimacy of a career whose image has been tarnished greatly.

Man...man...first, LPN/VN, DO work in NICU,ICU, CCU, MICU. SICU,Trauma ER, L&D, and many other areas! They preform well in these areas, and DO serve as resources for less experienced RNs! There are many fast track programs out there, for LPN to RN, and ADN to BSN! I THINK, theses programs provide a needed, and welcome way to obtain your ADN, or BSN, or anything else! Why does everyone have to fit the mold, just because this is the route the majority took??

It seems to me, no matter what, there will always be something for someone, to stand up, and point out, how someone didn't do it this or that way, so they can't have learned as much as someone else! Geeze...thank God, that everyone doesn't hold on to the this is the way it was done, and this is the way it should always BE done! No wonder progress in so slow! It's like the doctors, who continued the practice of having new docs, continue to work 36 straight hours, because this is the way, they had to do it! I guess there are probably many of those who survived those rigors of training, who feel they are the better trained! Lord save us from the primitive thinkers, who seek to hold back progress, because their's is the only way!

Brownie

:mad:

Jason-ACNP

62 Posts

Okay, look. I have not the time, the will, nor the desire to argue ;)

Yet, I find hilarious the number of LPNs who THINK they have what it takes to be an RN. Everyone wants to be considered a professional, BUT VERY FEW are willing to put forth the effort to reach that level. There are DISTINCT DIFFEERNCES in the education of an LPN vs. an ADN. And the BSN? The differences in education are incomparable. Okay, okay…..so you are better at making beds, inserting foleys, or other “technical” duties. So is a highly trained monkey. But can you think critically? Let me answer that for you….NO. 90% of LPNs don’t know the meaning of critical thinking, much less have the ability to apply it. I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of LPNs CANNOT take a critical situation and apply knowledge learned from physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology etc. and apply it to that situation. It’s possible to memorize a ton of information, but NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT. That is precisely the reason why your scope of practice is limited, as well as why advanced practice nursing requires the BSN as a prerequisite.

Yet, as always, nursing continues to seek the least common denominator – that which is easiest. What is the easiest and fastest way I can obtain my AND? That is no different than me stating, “How many classes can I skip in medical school? After all, I have eight years of full-time college education (and every prerequisite for medical school). I hold a BSN (4.0 G.P.A.) as well as a Masc. (3.95 G.P.A), in conjunction to years of VALUBLE experience. Don’t forget!!! I already have prescriptive privileges, and I’ve tutored many of your medical students over the past two years in physical assessment skills! That should count for something!!!!! Pu-leeeaassseeee. Do you think they give a damn? Of course not. It is called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Get it? One more time…

S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. By all means…pursue an AND (or whatever) in the fast track, but please…PLEASE – don’t whine and moan because you aren’t deemed a professional.

Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same.

As always, this is not meant to be construed as insensitive or rude. However, the issue has apparently become cloudy, and the need for clarification is quite evident. I am done with this issue. Take care.

;) :D :cool: :)

Brownms46

1 Article; 2,394 Posts

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by Jason-ACNP:

Okay, look. I have not the time, the will, nor the desire to argue ;)

Yet, I find hilarious the number of LPNs who THINK they have what it takes to be an RN. Everyone wants to be considered a professional, BUT VERY FEW are willing to put forth the effort to reach that level. There are DISTINCT DIFFEERNCES in the education of an LPN vs. an ADN. And the BSN? The differences in education are incomparable. Okay, okay…..so you are better at making beds, inserting foleys, or other “technical” duties. So is a highly trained monkey. But can you think critically? Let me answer that for you….NO. 90% of LPNs don’t know the meaning of critical thinking, much less have the ability to apply it. I think that it is safe to say that 99.9% of LPNs CANNOT take a critical situation and apply knowledge learned from physiology, pathophysiology, pharmacology etc. and apply it to that situation. It’s possible to memorize a ton of information, but NOT UNDERSTAND ANY OF IT. That is precisely the reason why your scope of practice is limited, as well as why advanced practice nursing requires the BSN as a prerequisite.

Yet, as always, nursing continues to seek the least common denominator – that which is easiest. What is the easiest and fastest way I can obtain my AND? That is no different than me stating, “How many classes can I skip in medical school? After all, I have eight years of full-time college education (and every prerequisite for medical school). I hold a BSN (4.0 G.P.A.) as well as a Masc. (3.95 G.P.A), in conjunction to years of VALUBLE experience. Don’t forget!!! I already have prescriptive privileges, and I’ve tutored many of your medical students over the past two years in physical assessment skills! That should count for something!!!!! Pu-leeeaassseeee. Do you think they give a damn? Of course not. It is called S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. Get it? One more time…

S-T-A-N-D-A-R-D-S. By all means…pursue an AND (or whatever) in the fast track, but please…PLEASE – don’t whine and moan because you aren’t deemed a professional.

Furthermore, the longstanding conviction that the BSN should be the entry level into nursing will never be adhered to. Thus, I am an advocate of having LPNs join the ANA in a limited capacity. There clearly needs to be unity within this field. But make no mistake. While unity is imperative for nursing to progress, there is a reason for the hierarchy. All nurses ARE NOT the same.

As always, this is not meant to be construed as insensitive or rude. However, the issue has apparently become cloudy, and the need for clarification is quite evident. I am done with this issue. Take care.

;) :D :cool: :)

I find your response absolutely hilarious!!! What a crock of manure! Mr. "I'm too intelligent to even agrue"...LOL! What a joke your response was! Why aren't you a DOCTOR?? Couldn't get into medical school?? Why you did cheapen your educational prusuits, and fail to become a "real Practioner??? Couldn't hack it?? Couldn't critcally think, or just didn't have what it took?? HUH?? Your response shows the kind of narrow minded, insensitive, holier than thou attitude, that permeates too many "real nurses" now! You're soooooo busy looking down your noses at those with a lesser education, that you're a no earthly good to anyone! And your teaching new med students...hum...they do say that those can't do, "teach"! Your pitfull attempt to state, that you weren't "trying" to be "rude" sickens me!!! Your response was RUDE...R U D E, I N S E N S I T I V E, inaccruate, a pathetic generalization in the highest form, and just plain ignorant! All that education didn't seem to help you become a more effective communicator did it?

Noooooo NOT ALL nurses are the same...and THANK GOD for that miracle!!!

Prescriptive abilities...LOL...

I think they train monkeys to write also...LOL! OOOoohhhh...and they can use computer too...LOL...hmmmm ..I wonder...nawwwwww...couldn't be. Wait... they do have a hirearchy...maybeee..lol.

Now that the "Masta has spoken"...don't anyone dare to disagree...lol...don't hold your breath! And as for the ANA...the same goes for me, ever wanting, or even trying to join them! I have NEVER even thought about joining them, but there is a organization for LPN/VN, called the National Federation of Licensed Practical Nurses. Unity in the nursing profession, that has "Regal Nimcompoops", disgused as "Another Common Needle Pusher" as their member, will NEVER become a reality! I have never, and will NEVER lower my S T A N D A R D S, to become a part of anything you would support! ACNP= Advanced Cricitzing Nasty Poster"

:mad:

It's those who expouse your kind of thinking, that makes this profession what it is today! Thankfully, I work with "Nurses", who don't look down their noses, and see me as less than them. "WE" work as a team, and they don't feel the need to belittle others, as a way of feeling better about themselves, or to cover up their own insecuities!

I have worked with many RNs, who have given me high praise, and have help me secure a contract in THEIR ICU, not once, for FOUR back to back, because THEY felt I was an EXCELLENT NURSE! AND...let's not forget, the head of the OB dept, who offered me a position as HIS head nurse, when he had FOUR YEAR RNs, who couldn't preform any better than ME...LOL! It made me crack up, to see those, who just like you, thought their education made them better, get pissed as all get out...LOL...not because I took the position, but that HE offered it right in front of them!!! Too bad YOU weren't there to tell him, that I wasn't any better than a "highly trained monkey"!!! I guess that is why there are so many LPN/VNs who are now Doctors, NP, PAs, and RNs, huh? So if they can obtain the same level of education, that you supposedly have, now please tell me, how did they obtain it? Did they suddenly become critical thinkers, just because they achieved another year or two of education? What about the genisues, who never went to college? Where they also trained monkeys?? Too bad, and just too sad!

Wasn't generalization covered in your many years of trying to become superior??

Brownie, the highly trained, and but oooooh so highly paid trained monkey!!!

:D

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Brownms46 ]

[ May 07, 2001: Message edited by: Brownms46 ]

Chellyse

160 Posts

Oh boy let me take a deep breath and jump in...While stating that Tim was trying to make a point which is valid the post got a wee bit emotional and personal at the end.

All nurses are not the same, all doctors are not the same...There has to be standards, part of the problem when we start talking about standards it leads into the elitist stance and defensive mode (stealth mode for some Good Lord)

I think the ANA should represent LPN's as I said in a different post and if the time comes, maybe it is now, why not allow LPN's that have x experience to challenge the boards? This is not a fast track equation, the military does this all the time.For those that choose not to that is fine too.

The standards could be raised for a BSN, since ADN and BSN take the same boards, add some questions that pertain to the mandated curriculum why not...seperate us out more or level the field.These arguments are old began with eltism and were meant to be divise.Standards were different 50 years ago then they are now.In the last 5 years we have gone from taking the Boards for a two day written session to an online computer version (and yes this has changed the format,check the debates and articles at the NCLEX site) There are so many options available in Healthcare today that a revamping of the entire nursing process is a possibility really. To better prepare speciality nurses focus the curriculum and criteria there.

I know I am stepping into hot water just by posting on this thread. I work with many LPN's because I work in geriatrics,I can tell you that some are perfectly content with thier practice and some choose advancing to ADN or BSN but all that I have talked to,tell me that there is a difference in the knowledge base requirements between an RN and LPN. I did not say one was better than the other, and I did not say that working as a nurse in LTC in particular has any basis in clinical skills needed, just that there is a difference. The difference becomes apparent when you sit for the boards.

I mean I might be so competent as to know how to take care of the needs of a particular client better than the physician assigned to the case but that does not negate the fact that the physician has more education than me, because he does. We have the opportunity to make our opinions known with a tremendous nursing shortage hovering atop this profession.Now is the time to make changes, we need to decide what those changes need to be. The ADN nurse was brought in and designed for a nursing shortage and today makes up 70% of the workforce. The word "professional" is the target or was, the class system was set up long ago but it does not mean it can not be changed. I enjoy working with LPN's,treat everyone with respect and you will get respect in return.This argument did not need to happen if this was observed,but the fact remains it is a real issue and the only way to find solutions is to dialogue about it, because it keeps coming up over and over again.I hope we can dialogue again :) :p :)

Brownms46

1 Article; 2,394 Posts

Specializes in Everything except surgery.
Originally posted by Chellyse66:

Oh boy let me take a deep breath and jump in...While stating that Tim was trying to make a point which is valid the post got a wee bit emotional and personal at the end.

All nurses are not the same, all doctors are not the same...There has to be standards, part of the problem when we start talking about standards it leads into the elitist stance and defensive mode (stealth mode for some Good Lord)

I think the ANA should represent LPN's as I said in a different post and if the time comes, maybe it is now, why not allow LPN's that have x experience to challenge the boards? This is not a fast track equation, the military does this all the time.For those that choose not to that is fine too.

The standards could be raised for a BSN, since ADN and BSN take the same boards, add some questions that pertain to the mandated curriculum why not...seperate us out more or level the field.These arguments are old began with eltism and were meant to be divise.Standards were different 50 years ago then they are now.In the last 5 years we have gone from taking the Boards for a two day written session to an online computer version (and yes this has changed the format,check the debates and articles at the NCLEX site) There are so many options available in Healthcare today that a revamping of the entire nursing process is a possibility really. To better prepare speciality nurses focus the curriculum and criteria there.

I know I am stepping into hot water just by posting on this thread. I work with many LPN's because I work in geriatrics,I can tell you that some are perfectly content with thier practice and some choose advancing to ADN or BSN but all that I have talked to,tell me that there is a difference in the knowledge base requirements between an RN and LPN. I did not say one was better than the other, and I did not say that working as a nurse in LTC in particular has any basis in clinical skills needed, just that there is a difference. The difference becomes apparent when you sit for the boards.

I mean I might be so competent as to know how to take care of the needs of a particular client better than the physician assigned to the case but that does not negate the fact that the physician has more education than me, because he does. We have the opportunity to make our opinions known with a tremendous nursing shortage hovering atop this profession.Now is the time to make changes, we need to decide what those changes need to be. The ADN nurse was brought in and designed for a nursing shortage and today makes up 70% of the workforce. The word "professional" is the target or was, the class system was set up long ago but it does not mean it can not be changed. I enjoy working with LPN's,treat everyone with respect and you will get respect in return.This argument did not need to happen if this was observed,but the fact remains it is a real issue and the only way to find solutions is to dialogue about it, because it keeps coming up over and over again.I hope we can dialogue again :) :p :)

I agree in part with your post, and feel that you communicated it in an intelligent, and thoughtful manner.

However, I feel that the previous poster's, point was made mote, when he decide to include inaccruate statements, and sunk to making generalizations, and elitist boasts!

As far as the ANA goes...they can keep going, and should never be forced to represent LPNs, in my opinion!

I wouldn't want to be represented by any organization, that has to be pushed into allowing me into their group, or who has members who feel, I, and other LPN/VNs are beneath them!

:(

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