What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

zenman · Jul 10, 2004

In my opinion, the development of the ADN degree has been one of the worst things that another nurse could do to our profession. Many other healthcare "professionals" (PTs, OTs, Social workers, dietitians, etc.) have at least a BS or even Masters degree. (In fact, most professional occupations require 4 years of education.) Yet nurses, who must actually know more about the patient, can have less education. Is something wrong with this picture?

I hear a lot of comments about how diploma and ADN graduates have more clinical (that translates to less "knowledge") than BSN graduates and can "hit the ground running." That's not the issue so drop that argument. No new graduate can function well. I know of no profession where new grads are expected to "hit the ground running." The question is "where are they down the road."

In most professions more education translates to more money over a lifetime. Whether that does or does not do so for nursing is an internal problem of our profession.

I'm not talking about any positive personality traits of any one individual, ie., one ADN nurse being far superior to another BSN nurse. I'm talking across the board. Any course a person takes in college increases your "knowledge" level, even if it is a liberal arts course. The person with the most knowledge wins. "Knowledge is power." Critical thinking skills are lacking in many nurses and is greatly improved by more education (knowledge).

Some other benefits of education include:

1. better health (for your children also)

2. reduced crime

3. wider knowledge gap

4. more open-minded (oh,no, this seems to be a problem in nursing)

5. less moralistic

6. more rational thinking

7. more cultured

8. more integrated

9. more consistent

10. less authoritarian

11. less materialistic

12. less prejudice

13. greater knowledge of world affairs

14. greater social status

15. more social activism

I'm sure there are more and if I had more education I could think of them!

leslie :-D · Jul 10, 2004

In my opinion, the development of the ADN degree has been one of the worst things that another nurse could do to our profession. Many other healthcare "professionals" (PTs, OTs, Social workers, dietitians, etc.) have at least a BS or even Masters degree. (In fact, most professional occupations require 4 years of education.) Yet nurses, who must actually know more about the patient, can have less education. Is something wrong with this picture?
I hear a lot of comments about how diploma and ADN graduates have more clinical (that translates to less "knowledge") than BSN graduates and can "hit the ground running." That's not the issue so drop that argument. No new graduate can function well. I know of no profession where new grads are expected to "hit the ground running." The question is "where are they down the road."
In most professions more education translates to more money over a lifetime. Whether that does or does not do so for nursing is an internal problem of our profession.
I'm not talking about any positive personality traits of any one individual, ie., one ADN nurse being far superior to another BSN nurse. I'm talking across the board. Any course a person takes in college increases your "knowledge" level, even if it is a liberal arts course. The person with the most knowledge wins. "Knowledge is power." Critical thinking skills are lacking in many nurses and is greatly improved by more education (knowledge).
Some other benefits of education include:
1. better health (for your children also)
2. reduced crime
3. wider knowledge gap
4. more open-minded (oh,no, this seems to be a problem in nursing)
5. less moralistic
6. more rational thinking
7. more cultured
8. more integrated
9. more consistent
10. less authoritarian
11. less materialistic
12. less prejudice
13. greater knowledge of world affairs
14. greater social status
15. more social activism
I'm sure there are more and if I had more education I could think of them!

zenman, with all due respect, your so called advantages of education are your opinions and some of the benefits you profess are far fetched...? more rational thinking?, less materialistic, more cultured, less prejudice, etc......

the only (but not to be underestimated) truth is the broader knowledge base. and while i will never dispute the gen'l advantages of furthering anyone's education, for some it's hard to justify when a bsn makes the same $ as the adn on the floor. if i were to return to school, it would be for my personal satisfaction and little to do w/professional upgrading as i enjoy being a floor nurse. if i wanted to pursue mgmt. then that's where bsn/msn is required.

leslie

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Jul 10, 2004

that is sooo stupid.

i had over 60+ hours and was ready to go into a bsn program... but chose to go to an ADN program because it was close to home, it worked out better for me because i have a child, i had more family support, ect.

i have had every class a bsn grad does... algebra, statistics, chemistry, zoo ect. so i am stupid and a lesser nurse because i have an ADN degree?

when we (adn and bsn) both took two years of a "clinical" major? compared to the closest BSN school, do you know that my ADN program had 4 more formal papers (and I mean, these were thirty page papers, had to have 10+ sources cited, ect) than that program required. what about our clinical time? we spent twice as much time at clinical than that school did.

i got my 60 hours done in one year (thats CLEP, summer session, winter intersession, and taking a more than full load during the regular semester). i worked my butt off. So actually, I got done in three years what it takes some BSN kids to get done in four +.

and then, when i go on to get my BSN this next school year, guess what? it'll only take me 2 semesters. so i will have been practicing for an entire year.... but will still have my BSN in a total of four years.

in short, i am trying to say that myself, and other ADN nurses i know have as much or more of a knowledge base than a lot of BSN grads. and thats not even counting experience.

but for some reason, BSN's are professionals and we (ADN nurses) are not?

I believe its that license that makes us professional.. if we are able to get that RN license, it doesn't matter if we're diploma or MSN.

If any one says that ADN's don't measure up to other nurses, this is what I have to say: whatever. and if anything ever happened to you and you were brought to a local ED and it was a major emergency... you'd bettter expect that a few of those nurses working to save your life are ADN nurses.

zenman · Jul 10, 2004

Posted by earle 58: zenman, with all due respect, your so called advantages of education are your opinions and some of the benefits you profess are far fetched...? more rational thinking?, less materialistic, more cultured, less prejudice, etc......

Sorry; few were my opinions but results of studies. Sorry, but I don't have the sources with me here.

the only (but not to be underestimated) truth is the broader knowledge base. and while i will never dispute the gen'l advantages of furthering anyone's education, for some it's hard to justify when a bsn makes the same $ as the adn on the floor.

And that's a problem with the nursing profession!

if i were to return to school, it would be for my personal satisfaction and little to do w/professional upgrading as i enjoy being a floor nurse. if i wanted to pursue mgmt. then that's where bsn/msn is required.

That's ok. A couple of years ago, I was working as a staff nurse (with 2 masters...3 if you count my wife!). Did my increased knowledge level help me in caring for a diverse group of patients? Have my non-nursing courses in psycho-therapy, management, martial arts...even shamanism give me an edge over other nurses? What would be the level of care provided by 2 twins, one with an ADN and one with a PhD, both with 5 years of clinical experience?

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 10, 2004

In my opinion, the development of the ADN degree has been one of the worst things that another nurse could do to our profession. Many other healthcare "professionals" (PTs, OTs, Social workers, dietitians, etc.) have at least a BS or even Masters degree. (In fact, most professional occupations require 4 years of education.) Yet nurses, who must actually know more about the patient, can have less education. Is something wrong with this picture?
The problem, I think, is in the transition from nursing as a trade to nursing as a profession--i.e. it's an ongoing process. We wouldn't think of an Associates Degree in Law, but ADN and diploma nurses aren't a new development. As I understand it, these were more the norm than a BSN when nursing was simply a trade.
One of my instructors discussed a distinction between a Registered professional Nurse (BSN) and a Registered technical Nurse (ADN). That seems valid, and might be a distinction that should be formalized in the NPA. But I think it goes unnecessarily far to make a BSN the entry-level degree. There's room for CNA's and LPN's, and IMHO there's still plenty of room for ADN's.
I can't speak for anyone but me, but I strongly suspect I will get a lot more out of my BSN after I've had a year or two working as an ADN, and I'm certain I will be in a much position to afford it. Then again, I'm entirely comfortable with practicing an honest trade. I wonder if we don't get a little carried away by the whole "profession" issue.
My dad tells of a television interview he saw, in which a child prodigy said he thought his father might feel uncomfortable about the son's abilities, since he (the father) "works with his hands." The interviewer asked what the father did, and the son replied, "He's a neurosurgeon."

RNIAM, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2004

"Registered technical Nurse (ADN). " No, sorry their is nothing in that name that I like. I worked for three years to get my ADN. I will not allow my hard work to be simplified in that way. The only thing that separates my education from a BSN is one year of classes. Sorry but some business classes and a course in community nursing if not enough to change my professional status to that of a technician. I am all for compensating a person with a 4 year degree for the extra education however I would not support minimizing the effort and time I put in to get my Associates degree in such a way. That is why I intend to join the ANA. In this way my voice can be heard. Sorry to blow a little but that just got me going a little.

RN34TX · Jul 10, 2004

"Registered technical Nurse (ADN). " No, sorry their is nothing in that name that I like. I worked for three years to get my ADN. I will not allow my hard work to be simplified in that way. The only thing that separates my education from a BSN is one year of classes. Sorry but some business classes and a course in community nursing if not enough to change my professional status to that of a technician. I am all for compensating a person with a 4 year degree for the extra education however I would not support minimizing the effort and time I put in to get my Associates degree in such a way. That is why I intend to join the ANA. In this way my voice can be heard. Sorry to blow a little but that just got me going a little.

FYI- ANA strongly supports the notion that the BSN should be the minimal preparation for "professional" nursing practice and has a long history of political lobbying and advocating for the changing of roles and titles of LPN/LVN's and diploma or ADN RN's to either become technicians, associate nurses to be called AN's and not RN's, technical nurses, or phased out altogether. Check this out:

http://nursing.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fnursingworld.org%2Fpressrel%2F2000%2Fpr0225b.htm

This website also will list organizations that do advocate for ADN nurses and you may be interested in joining one of them.

Trust me, the ANA does not want to hear your voice about advocating for ADN's. They strongly resent the fact that ADN's and BSN's practice under the same license, and since their other efforts have failed over the years they now want the BSN's to take some additional certification exam to distinguish them from ADN's.

I no longer subscribe to AJN because of their close ties to ANA.

As an LPN, I didn't tolerate anyone telling me or trying to imply in any way that I wasn't a "real nurse" and now as an ADN RN I certainly won't tolerate it either. Just more issues to divide us all up and help keep our profession in shambles.

I know that other professions have Bachelor's or Master's as the minimal preparation, but I for one would like to take pride in the fact that nursing is unique in that it has different levels for many different people who want to be a part of it. They can start and stop at a level that fits them or build on what they have now and continue on.

sproutsfriend · Jul 10, 2004

Credible employers recognize that BSN RNs have a better appreciation of the deeper science behind the physician ordered interventions. They also recognize management training, and the critical thinking skills. This lets you move into other non-patient care roles such as administration, utilization, case management, quality assurance, and a host of other management jobs.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · Jul 10, 2004

My husband has a PhD. We were students at the same time for much of our studies and saw first hand what the other had to endure. He has told me "After seeing everything you had to do, I think that getting an AAS in nursing is about as difficult as getting a Master's in engineering."

I do not know that I agree with this, but my dh believes this and stands by his statement.

All the papers I had to write for my ADN fill the same amount of storage trunk space as his Master's degree writings. Unlike many ADN programs, mine did have public and community health components.

leslie :-D · Jul 10, 2004

My husband has a PhD. We were students at the same time for much of our studies and saw first hand what the other had to endure. He has told me "After seeing everything you had to do, I think that getting an AAS in nursing is about as difficult as getting a Master's in engineering."
I do not know that I agree with this, but my dh believes this and stands by his statement.
All the papers I had to write for my ADN fill the same amount of storage trunk space as his Master's degree writings. Unlike many ADN programs, mine did have public and community health components.

i too, have heard similiar feedback about my adn....but although i am extremely pleased w/the quality of education i received, we're still considered bottom of the totem pole and not professionals. rather pretentious to me but who am i??? only an adn nurse, what do i know? :stone

leslie

bsnecu99 · Jul 10, 2004

In my opinion, the development of the ADN degree has been one of the worst things that another nurse could do to our profession. Many other healthcare "professionals" (PTs, OTs, Social workers, dietitians, etc.) have at least a BS or even Masters degree. (In fact, most professional occupations require 4 years of education.) Yet nurses, who must actually know more about the patient, can have less education. Is something wrong with this picture?
I hear a lot of comments about how diploma and ADN graduates have more clinical (that translates to less "knowledge") than BSN graduates and can "hit the ground running." That's not the issue so drop that argument. No new graduate can function well. I know of no profession where new grads are expected to "hit the ground running." The question is "where are they down the road."
In most professions more education translates to more money over a lifetime. Whether that does or does not do so for nursing is an internal problem of our profession.
I'm not talking about any positive personality traits of any one individual, ie., one ADN nurse being far superior to another BSN nurse. I'm talking across the board. Any course a person takes in college increases your "knowledge" level, even if it is a liberal arts course. The person with the most knowledge wins. "Knowledge is power." Critical thinking skills are lacking in many nurses and is greatly improved by more education (knowledge).
Some other benefits of education include:
1. better health (for your children also)
2. reduced crime
3. wider knowledge gap
4. more open-minded (oh,no, this seems to be a problem in nursing)
5. less moralistic
6. more rational thinking
7. more cultured
8. more integrated
9. more consistent
10. less authoritarian
11. less materialistic
12. less prejudice
13. greater knowledge of world affairs
14. greater social status
15. more social activism
I'm sure there are more and if I had more education I could think of them!

Dear Fellow Nurse,

On some of your issues, I could not agree more. I do not know who thought of the ADN program, but if you will think for a moment, just WHO said it was a good idea? YOUR State Board of Nursing. I have to laugh, however, having read the latest BON publication which touts that they exist for the safety of the patient! This same BON will license a monkey if that monkey can get a pill bottle open! Their newest baby is what is called a "med tech." This "med tech" is a CNAII with, what I understand, is an additional short course in reading and MAR or something equally as absurd. These "med techs" then go on to pass meds such as digitalis, oxycodone, warfarin sodium, dilantin, Ativan, and other medications which, in my opinion, require a higher learning base than just a couple weeks in order to guarantee PATIENT SAFETY!! Would you not agree?

Back to your point of what is expected of new BSN graduates. Our local megahospital, which owns 90% of all hospitals east of I-95, expects nurses to hit the ground running - yep - agree or not. I had passed my NCLEX not two weeks before and my nurse manager was horrified I could not pull a central line that minute. She was also upset that I could not skillfully manage a chest tube, a PCA pump, TPN with lipids and chemotherapy for AIDS patients. By the way, I was on a neuromedical floor. Before I graduated I had given ONE IM injection and started FIVE IVs. Yes, the ADNs who graduate from the local two-year college were more than ready to jump into the fray the first day and could start IVs on balloons without popping them. Scoff if you must, but it is true.

As far as a knowledge base is concerned, here is my problem with that. Firstly, the doctor knows a thousand times more than you. The patient could probably score higher on an exam about his/her disease than you, and crap, the family could instruct you for weeks. Everytime I endeavored to discuss something with the patient or family, they would say, "I know, I already know." Where did that leave me? I did have a stint as an admissions nurse where patient education was nearly THE most important part of my initial visit. It was extremely rare that I taught them something they did not know. As a student I visited with a home health nurse on a young child with rhabdo, and that little girl even drew her own lab and flushed her own port! Made me feel like an idiot. Only after I was five years out of college, was I able to flush an implanted port! That was, oh, a month ago, maybe.

On our unit, it was also a problem in that the ADNs who weren't laughing about how they get paid EXACTLY what a BSN/MSN or PhD nurse makes, were roaring over how scant our skills were! If they weren't laughing, they were envious and fearful of our degree. What a paradox!

I also want to speak about what you are saying about education. I presently an unemployed. I have about 10 resumes out there. I spent the last three weeks calling and walking and knocking on doors and engaging employment agencies, the office of unemployment here, and nothing! Additionally, they are filling the local megahospital with Canadian and Filipino nurses by the dozens!

I agree that BSNs or those with higher educations should make more money. In no other profession I can think of is this NOT true. I say, if you want us to get this advanced education, then at least pay us enough so we can pay off the student loans, please! If you want to pay us minimum wage and treat us like crap, then don't require any advanced education beyond high school and maybe what the nursing assistants must obtain.

It is a shame that nurses have attempted to raise the reputation of nursing by taking on more, and more potentially llitigous responsibility. You can't make someone admire or respect you more by doing that. Why does everyone respect doctors, dentists and attorneys? Because they close ranks and REFUSE to take less than they believe they are worth. If I hear one more whining nurse tell me, "you should be in it because you love it and you should do it for free," I'll choke. The nurses who say that began nursing when they were 20, put their thousands away when they could work twenty shifts in a row, and nursing didn't suck. Now that they are in their 40s and 50s they can afford to be idealistic. The other half are 20 and don't know any better. They'll come around.

For your information, neither I, nor my 15 year old handicapped child, have health insurance. So I am not sure where ideal #1 came from. My father didn't even finish 8th grade, and has never been in jail. Greater social status? My husband has a PhD in biochemistry/biophysics and could not afford to buy a house until he was 57 years old!

While I agree with many of your statements, paint them with a narrower brush. By the way, who cares about "down the road?" Most nurses leave the profession before 10 years! Good luck.

RN4NICU, LPN, LVN · Jul 10, 2004

Dear Fellow Nurse,
On some of your issues, I could not agree more. I do not know who thought of the ADN program, but if you will think for a moment, just WHO said it was a good idea?

Wasn't the ADN developed as a war-time thing when more nurses were needed - and needed right then, if not the day before yesterday? It seems I heard that somewhere.

Why does everyone respect doctors, dentists and attorneys? Because they close ranks and REFUSE to take less than they believe they are worth. If I hear one more whining nurse tell me, "you should be in it because you love it and you should do it for free," I'll choke.

AMEN, sister!

I agree that BSNs or those with higher educations should make more money. In no other profession I can think of is this NOT true.

Again, I say AMEN!

And please do not insult us by paying us another $0.25 - $0.50 an hour for a higher degree. There should be an ACTUAL DIFFERENCE for more education.

Many will say "oh but its just liberal arts classes and blah, blah, blah..." Then take the stupid classes and get the degree if you want it instead of trying to hold back the ones who already have it.