What can I do with my BSN that Assoc. RN's can't?

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

Posted by jeepgirl:But doesn't it all even out?

A person with 2 years of liberal arts does not even out to a person with 4 years of liberal arts. Same for nursing.

Less knowledge base for the ADN nurses for some reason - something to do with not having enough art and music classes or something (can't quite figure it out yet... anyway) and possibly maybe some community health stuff... even though in my ADN program it was included.

You are aware that there is a reason for art, music, etc, etc. aren't you? Looking at the NSU school I mentioned earlier, the BSN people have 122 hours compared to 71 hours for the ADN. I might be wrong, but in every course I've taken, I've learned something new. In the NSU program, I see that the BSN has the following stand along courses that the ADN does not have.

1.Nutrition

2. Cultural & Ethical Influences (that a big one in today's world)

3. Health Assessment

4. Pharmalogy

5. Health Info Management

6. An additional psych course

7. Economics

8. Research in Health Care

9. Nursing Management

10. Complex Nursing Care

12. Healthcare Management

13. Community Health Nursing

This was a quick glance but looks like the ADN grads at this school need to continue their education at some point!

Less knowledge base for the BSN nurses - possibly from not being able to learn enough in clinical, for the simple reason that they don't have as much clinical exposure. Because of this, they don't get the hands on experience they need while they are learning "from the book." This can be bad because it could be harder for them to make connections between book and real life - which is what we tend to call "critical thinking".

It's more "application" than critical thinking, but you do have a point. But don't throw out "book learning" just for OJT which will come anyway.

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

Poste by CSLee3: Okay, here is another thought......
Unless you have been an LPN, Then ADN, Then BSN, Then MSN you are really not qualified to speak and assume the different ins and outs of these programs.

I wa never an ADN grad but did teach in both ADN and BSN programs. I started at the bottom of the healthcare team...CNA, Army medic, LPN, BSN grad (after 5-6 years of full and part time college), MSN, MBA, then 700 hours of Oriental Medicine. I do love knowledge and remember the first day I ever went to the public library at 6 years of age where I checked out 25 books! I read 4-5 books at a time and my wife continues to rag on me for the money I could have spent on her! :rotfl: I know a "little' about everything...go ahead...make my day!

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

Posted by nursemike?: If you look in the Help Wanted ads, a lot of jobs like used car sales prefer a bachelor's degree. Doesn't matter which subject, just a degree. So, really, how much professional recognition does the same level of education as a used car salesman confer? Which is not to say a BSN is useless, although it does sound like some BSN-level courses may be close to useless. But education does not equal professionalism, and it's the appearance of professionalism that earns respect. A BSN does open doors, but any school is just the first step toward being a nurse.

If a BS is required in used cars sales and we don't even "demand" that. Sad...so very sad. Most professions require a 4 year degree. Let's lower our standards shall we?

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

jeepgirl,
trust me i noticed but refused to respond to the mentality level. i'm quite secure in myself and you will find that people that are secure, do not feel the need to defend themselves. sometimes you just shake your head while looking at the source. thanks.
leslie

When I stated the following: If you restate your particular question and give me your educational level, I'll try to explain it to you. I'm not trying to offend you, but one reason you ask patients their educational level is so you know how to respond to their level when providing patient teaching, for example. I told you that I was not trying to offend you. The point was to make you aware that, in patient teaching, assessing their educational level was important. Then you come back asking if that's important!! I need to start drinking!!

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

Posted y Suzy K: I wrote far more papers in my BSN program than I have in my MSN program; I am writing only ONE: my THESIS. Which I can tell you is unlike any other paper I have written before. It's not all about quantity.

Let me give you a tip. Don't argue with your thesis committee about anything. Just do as they say and you'll get done quicker. Throw in a few, "Oh, that's a good idea!" Don't consider any comments about your thesis as being personal.

zenman · Jul 16, 2004

Posted by suzy253: Can delusions of grandeur be treated by medications???

Sometimes; if you can get the patient to stay on them. You're not talking about me are you? I'm outstanding in my field; a legend in my own mind!

CarolineRn · Jul 16, 2004

I just graduated with my BSN this spring. I'm working as a PCA2/Graduate Nurse at a local hospital until I take my boards... I am taking my HESI tomorrow at the college I graduated from. This is an 'exit' type of exam that we have to pass before taking our boards. I'm feeling down about not being able to pass and have this huge fear that I am not going to pass my boards!
Amidst my fear, I am questioning taking a role as an RN on floor nursing. It seems like most of the RN's on my floor have an associates degree, and I am questioning if I should be doing something different since I have my bachelor's? The pay is the same for an Assoc. or BSN, which doesn't make any sense to me. Just wondering what else is available that I might not be looking for, or what your opinions are!?
Another BSN student who just graduated as well was speaking with me, and said she wonders if the Assoc. degree RN's laugh thinking that we have wasted our time getting our BSN when we get the same pay/same responsibilities. Is this a big issue?
Thanks!
Miranda

First of all Miranda, congratulations girl on getting that BSN! as an ADN, I must tell you that you need to believe me when I say that NOBODY is "laughing at you." You're still a new RN, BSN or not, so you still need to undergo the same training we all do. However, most ADN's I know of are working towards, or planning on getting their BSN. You are just there already. While the BSN may not do a whole lot for you in the beginning, (I know, paywise, it really sucks!) Remember that with your BSN you can go into management, and other areas that are not available to us ADN nurses. It will take time for you, just as it takes time for all RN's, to "learn the ropes" so to speak. Be patient, know that you have a head's up on stepping up the ladder in career advancement, and above all treat all the ADN's you work with with respect-- many have been doing the things you are learning for YEARS, and have no inclination to move up that ladder. (I do, though.. so I understand) Just roll with the flow for now, be a sponge, learn who are the best RN's to use as resources, and spend this first year learning to become an RN. Welcome to the wonderful world of nursing, and trust me-- you ARE appreciated. :)

CarolineRn · Jul 16, 2004

I'm older. I've had other careers. I was a publisher (excuse me, did I say "publisher"? I meant a grossly unsuccessful publisher)

ROFLMAO!!! You get my respect for giving it a try, and your honesty is great! SOMEDAY, SOMEDAY, I'll write that best-seller that will make me the next Stephen King!

an eduction counselor, and was in the military for 10 years. I have a B.Sc. in Liberal Arts and three Associate degrees of various sorts including my ADN. I came to nursing /p a religious conversion, and I love it. All I want to be is a staff nurse for the next 30 years. I hope everyone gets their BSN, because I desperately need a good manager and/or an NP who will write me orders for my pt. We need BSN nurses, but the nursing shortage is really about staff nursing. The glory of nursing, IMO, is in staff nursing. When it comes to staff nursing, you need to have an R.N. license. I have one. Acosmic

Amen, Brother!

Personally, I think it may be better to have a BA or BSc in another feild and an ADN, If "well-rounded" is what matters. For that matter, why not require a B.Sc. and then make nursing school a masters program?
I have no position either way; I see myself as an oddity in nursing, anyway (male, non-nursing bachelors, older, all whacked out religiously, etc.). As for entry level, that's for future nurses to worry about. Where I work, management requires a BSN. But I can't imagine going back to school in order to get a job doing what I consider a lesser occupation than staff nursing.
JMBO (just my babbling opinion)
Acosmic

You sound like awesome co-worker material. I think you should move to Bradenton, FL and work in CVICU!

CarolineRn · Jul 16, 2004

First of all Miranda, congratulations girl on getting that BSN! as an ADN, I must tell you that you need to believe me when I say that NOBODY is "laughing at you." You're still a new RN, BSN or not, so you still need to undergo the same training we all do. However, most ADN's I know of are working towards, or planning on getting their BSN. You are just there already. While the BSN may not do a whole lot for you in the beginning, (I know, paywise, it really sucks!) Remember that with your BSN you can go into management, and other areas that are not available to us ADN nurses. It will take time for you, just as it takes time for all RN's, to "learn the ropes" so to speak. Be patient, know that you have a head's up on stepping up the ladder in career advancement, and above all treat all the ADN's you work with with respect-- many have been doing the things you are learning for YEARS, and have no inclination to move up that ladder. (I do, though.. so I understand) Just roll with the flow for now, be a sponge, learn who are the best RN's to use as resources, and spend this first year learning to become an RN. Welcome to the wonderful world of nursing, and trust me-- you ARE appreciated. :)

PS. This sounds really crappy, but I think you need to be aware of the fact that where I work, nobody even KNOWS who is an ADN or a BSN. we are ALL RN's.. period. I know that you have spent more on your education, that you have spent extra time learning things to make you more "well-rounded" in general, and that you honestly feel you need more compensation. But do NOT loose sight of the fact that your extra training will help you down the road. But fo now, just soak up all the knowlege you can from the people who have been doing "real world" nursing for years. It will make you a better pt. advocate down the road, and when you are in managment and Admin is pushing you to do things that you KNOW are wrong (which WILL happen) arm yourself with the floor nurse's knowledge. Too many times people with BSN's go into management and are pressured to treat pt's like cattle-- move 'em in, move 'em out-- without really taking the pt's into mind. The BEST managers have LEARNED how it is to be a floor/unit RN, and protect not only the pt's, but their staff as well. Oh, BTW.... Good luck on boards. Relax, you know what you know. You'll do fine!

suzy253, RN · Jul 16, 2004

A person with 2 years of liberal arts does not even out to a person with 4 years of liberal arts. Same for nursing.
You are aware that there is a reason for art, music, etc, etc. aren't you? Looking at the NSU school I mentioned earlier, the BSN people have 122 hours compared to 71 hours for the ADN. I might be wrong, but in every course I've taken, I've learned something new. In the NSU program, I see that the BSN has the following stand along courses that the ADN does not have.
1.Nutrition
2. Cultural & Ethical Influences (that a big one in today's world)
3. Health Assessment
4. Pharmalogy
5. Health Info Management
6. An additional psych course
7. Economics
8. Research in Health Care
9. Nursing Management
10. Complex Nursing Care
12. Healthcare Management
13. Community Health Nursing
This was a quick glance but looks like the ADN grads at this school need to continue their education at some point!

I have all of the above in my diploma program.

nursemike, ASN, RN · Jul 16, 2004

If a BS is required in used cars sales and we don't even "demand" that. Sad...so very sad. Most professions require a 4 year degree. Let's lower our standards shall we?

When I was a carpenter, I was mostly self-employed, but I did occassionally sub and was even a full-time employee of a larger outfit, for a time. Working for a corporation was interesting, though on the whole the cons outweighed the pros. But one thing I noticed right away on a larger crew was that somebody would inevitably ask, "Where did you go to school?"

Now, I learned carpentry the way Jesus did--from my Dad.

A lot of guys who never had that opportunity learned in a vocational school, and that's fine, too. SOME of those guys, however, would argue all day whether a stud was a "jack" or a "trimmer", but couldn't nail one in straight if their lives depended on it (and half the time they got the name wrong, to boot!) My employer, who loved this school stuff, thought I was a good worker, but a little slow, because it took me all day to tear out and redo work that two of these educated bozoes had done together in half a day.

Which is a roundabout way of reaffirming that book-learnin' ain't everything. I also note that you came into nursing by an unconventional route--are you saying you shouldn't be a nurse?

As I've said before, all else being equal, a BSN is a good thing to have. But the floor I work on has empty beds because we can't staff them. An ADN means I have the opportunity to fill that need, meet my own needs, and go for more education, later.

As it happens, I work with some BSN students, and we sometimes complain to each other about our programs. Neither is perfect, though both appear to get the job done, since I've seen good nurses come out of both. The BSN courses appear to me to go into more detail in some areas. I took 1 semester of Anatomy & Physiology, where they take a semester of Anatomy and a semester of Physiology--

but we all seem to remember about the same amount by graduation. As for the liberal arts, I'm taking more than I need. College humanities courses provide work for humanities majors. Reading for pleasure does far more toward making one "well-rounded."

Frankly, I was intrigued by a post on another thread that NY is going to require ADN's and Diploma nurses to get a BSN within 10 years of licensure. That sounds a lot more reasonable than making a BSN the entry level. Of course, it's easy to agree with what I was already planning, and many might argue that an ADN or Diploma is all they need.

In any case, we certainly aren't "lowering" our standards by keeping them the same. We just aren't buying into degree inflation.

I will concede, your arguments make some sense if you are really worried about the "profession vs. trade" issue, but I've been a tradesman most of my life, and was content to be a good one. I was a "pro" since I got paid to do it, and I was professional in my ethics and practice, in part because lives sometimes depended on what I did, but I didn't need any fancy titles, and I still don't. I still say we will earn the respect of the public and our fellow professionals by the manner in which we conduct ourselves, rather than our degrees. My dealings with docs have always been cordial and professional, both as an orderly and as a lowly nursing student. That may be because I'm a middle-aged man, but then again, I usually conduct myself as a middle-aged man.

Soonstudent · Jul 16, 2004

When I was a carpenter, I was mostly self-employed, but I did occassionally sub and was even a full-time employee of a larger outfit, for a time. Working for a corporation was interesting, though on the whole the cons outweighed the pros. But one thing I noticed right away on a larger crew was that somebody would inevitably ask, "Where did you go to school?"
Now, I learned carpentry the way Jesus did--from my Dad.
A lot of guys who never had that opportunity learned in a vocational school, and that's fine, too. SOME of those guys, however, would argue all day whether a stud was a "jack" or a "trimmer", but couldn't nail one in straight if their lives depended on it (and half the time they got the name wrong, to boot!) My employer, who loved this school stuff, thought I was a good worker, but a little slow, because it took me all day to tear out and redo work that two of these educated bozoes had done together in half a day.
Which is a roundabout way of reaffirming that book-learnin' ain't everything. I also note that you came into nursing by an unconventional route--are you saying you shouldn't be a nurse?
As I've said before, all else being equal, a BSN is a good thing to have. But the floor I work on has empty beds because we can't staff them. An ADN means I have the opportunity to fill that need, meet my own needs, and go for more education, later.
As it happens, I work with some BSN students, and we sometimes complain to each other about our programs. Neither is perfect, though both appear to get the job done, since I've seen good nurses come out of both. The BSN courses appear to me to go into more detail in some areas. I took 1 semester of Anatomy & Physiology, where they take a semester of Anatomy and a semester of Physiology--
but we all seem to remember about the same amount by graduation. As for the liberal arts, I'm taking more than I need. College humanities courses provide work for humanities majors. Reading for pleasure does far more toward making one "well-rounded."
Frankly, I was intrigued by a post on another thread that NY is going to require ADN's and Diploma nurses to get a BSN within 10 years of licensure. That sounds a lot more reasonable than making a BSN the entry level. Of course, it's easy to agree with what I was already planning, and many might argue that an ADN or Diploma is all they need.
In any case, we certainly aren't "lowering" our standards by keeping them the same. We just aren't buying into degree inflation.
I will concede, your arguments make some sense if you are really worried about the "profession vs. trade" issue, but I've been a tradesman most of my life, and was content to be a good one. I was a "pro" since I got paid to do it, and I was professional in my ethics and practice, in part because lives sometimes depended on what I did, but I didn't need any fancy titles, and I still don't. I still say we will earn the respect of the public and our fellow professionals by the manner in which we conduct ourselves, rather than our degrees. My dealings with docs have always been cordial and professional, both as an orderly and as a lowly nursing student. That may be because I'm a middle-aged man, but then again, I usually conduct myself as a middle-aged man.

Well spoken