we've been having heated - but not yet angry - discussions - page 6
regarding the provision of medical services to undocumented residents - illegal aliens. As students, we've had the opportunity this semester to have clinical experiences that include being with... Read More
Apr 1, '04Joined: Jan '02; Posts: 5,673; Likes: 159Let's respect each other's opinions. Some here believe healthcare is a right. I am in agreement with Moia personally and believe things have gone way to far...apparently in Canada as well as the US.
Apr 1, '04Occupation: FNP and Dir of Nursing Specialty: 9 year(s) of experience in ED, Tele, Psych ; From: US ; Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 274; Likes: 104Quote from wjf00I am sorry but I disagree. I believe healthcare is a basic human right that everyone is entitled too. The US military treats enemy combatants, and I don't think an alien, illeagal or not, is any less entitled to healthcare. Payment should be based on ability to pay only. If we can threaten the world with nuclear weapons costing billions of dollars, then we can give healthcare to the indigent within our borders, no matter how they arrived here.
correct me if i'm wrong...
as i understand the current policy on providing healthcare to enemy combatants, general healthcare is provided to those in custody and under the control of the military (as are all detanies, prisoners, and suspects in custody in the united states). the services provided to non-combatants by the military is dependant on saving the "life, limb, or eyesight" of the individual seeking help.
Apr 1, '04Occupation: Clinic, HHC, Peds Joined: Jul '02; Posts: 567; Likes: 14[QUOTE=sagarcia210]Quote from kmchughThat's it! Can you imagine if all the illegals were legal workers? You think that would be the right thing to do here but the loss of taxpayers money would be far greater than leaving it the way it is. All the pickers, packers, ditch diggers, etc and their families would then be eligable for the tax incentives b/c of low income. 5.2 million X 500? to $1500? $$ each? Payed to them by us via our government. The credits, EIC, dependent, etc would pay them through IRS. Yikes! The $$ the migrant workers generate is far greater than the cost to educate them and take care of thier health. They would also qualify for HUD programs taking even more $$$ from our tax dollars under assistance programs. (Another topic altogether on the need for decent housing for these illegals). Unfortunatly the hospitals are on the losing end of all of this. But, we all gain in the end, including the illegal mexican growing and picking the food you eat on your table and the food we export to help balance the import/export ratios. Our economy probably can not afford to get rid of the illegals nor make them all legal. So get used to them and accept it as part of our livelyhood. Your overall quality of life depends on the low paid workers. Many, many Americans would rather sit home on fed asst than dig a ditch or wash your dishes at a resturaunt. The illegals are here to better their lives. They are also here to better your life.Nice. I have reflected on this question quite a bit. I don't happen to agree with you. In your mind, my disagreement means I should quit being a nurse. And if I don't want to quit, the healthcare police should take away my license.
Reply by sagarcia210:
I believe you missed my point, but maybe I didn't make myself clear. I did not mean that if you disagree you should not be a nurse. What I meant, is that if one would deny healthcare/help based solely on the fact that the person was undocumented/illegal, then maybe that person should step down and let someone else help that person.
Following are some very good points taken from a website that deals with hispanic issues:
SAN FRANCISCO January 11, 2004 (NYTimes)-Imagine America without undocumented immigrants, the people who flip the burgers, clean the toilets, watch the kids and send their children to public schools.
Would the grass be greener?
The Pew Hispanic Center estimated in 2001 that the unauthorized labor force in the United States totaled 5.3 million workers, including 700,000 restaurant workers, 250,000 household employees and 620,000 construction workers. In addition, about 1.2 million of the 2.5 million wage-earning farm workers live here undocumentedly, according to a study by Philip L. Martin, a professor at the University of California at Davis who studies immigration and farm labor.
That is a whole lot of cheap labor.
Without it, fruit and vegetables would rot in fields. Toddlers in Manhattan would be without nannies. Towels at hotels in states like Florida, Texas and California would go unlaundered. Commuters at airports from Miami to Newark would be stranded as taxi cabs sat driverless. Home improvement projects across the Sun Belt would grind to a halt. And bedpans and lunch trays at nursing homes in Chicago, New York, Houston and Los Angeles would go uncollected.
While hospitals and clinics in Los Angeles County, for example, bear huge health care costs associated with uninsured undocumented immigrants - one study put the total at $340 million in 2002 - the federal government enjoys a "bonanza" from many of the same immigrants who pay federal taxes but receive no benefits in return, Mr. Yzaguirre said.
Mr. Yzaguirre suggested that Social Security would go broke without the payments of undocumented workers, many of whom, contrary to popular perception, do have regular payroll taxes deducted from their paychecks by employers. (In some instances, undocumented workers use false Social Security numbers, while others have valid numbers from when they had worked legally.)
Mr. Yzaguirre also rejected suggestions that Americans would maintain their standard of living without the low-wage contributions of those workers. He agreed with Professor Borjas that some Americans would enjoy fatter paychecks, but he said all Americans would be punished by having to pay more for everything from a McDonald's hamburger to a new house.
In a 2002 study conducted with the cooperation of immigrant rights organizations, researchers at the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago concluded that the 300,000 or so undocumented immigrants in Chicago did not use government benefits at a substantial rate. The study also estimated that 70 percent of the undocumented workers paid payroll taxes, like Social Security and unemployment insurance. The researchers calculated other economic benefits, finding that consumer spending by undocumented migrants generated more than 31,000 jobs and contributed $5.34 billion annually to the gross regional product in Chicago.
Apr 1, '04Occupation: Inpatient acute rehab Joined: Aug '03; Posts: 2,234; Likes: 52Quote from flowerchildThat's it! Can you imagine if all the illegals were legal workers? You think that would be the right thing to do here but the loss of taxpayers money would be far greater than leaving it the way it is. All the pickers, packers, ditch diggers, etc and their families would then be eligable for the tax incentives b/c of low income. 5.2 million X 500? to $1500? $$ each? Payed to them by us via our government. The credits, EIC, dependent, etc would pay them through IRS. Yikes! The $$ the migrant workers generate is far greater than the cost to educate them and take care of thier health. They would also qualify for HUD programs taking even more $$$ from our tax dollars under assistance programs. (Another topic altogether on the need for decent housing for these illegals). Unfortunatly the hospitals are on the losing end of all of this. But, we all gain in the end, including the illegal mexican growing and picking the food you eat on your table and the food we export to help balance the import/export ratios. Our economy probably can not afford to get rid of the illegals nor make them all legal. So get used to them and accept it as part of our livelyhood. Your overall quality of life depends on the low paid workers. Many, many Americans would rather sit home on fed asst than dig a ditch or wash your dishes at a resturaunt. The illegals are here to better their lives. They are also here to better your life.
Well said Flower Child, well said!!!! Agree 100%!!!!
Apr 2, '04Occupation: staff nurse Specialty: 25 year(s) of experience in ER, ICU, Hyperbarics/wound care. PSYCH ; From: US ; Joined: Feb '04; Posts: 42; Likes: 29Everyone should have to pay something. It should be based on income to make it affordable to all. Just not totally free, because any service that has no cost has no value. But it cannot be restricted by race, or citizenship, or haircut. I would not want to be denied care because I was in Florida and I was from Mexico. If I am illegal, that is another issue, send me home. But do not deny care to at least stabilize the patient.
I have many times been faced with finding drugs on a patient, or treating murderers, rapists, etc. I have to divorce myself from the actions of the patient and take responsibility for my actions as a nurse. I made the choice to do what I do as they made the choices that got them where they are. How they handle their life is on them. I have to look at my face in the mirror, and live in my own little cranial garden. I treat them the best I can and go home knowing that I did the right thing.
I don't handle billing, I don't do police work, I don't work for immigration. I take sick people and try to make them better. I have not always been Mr. Rogers and God knows I am a long way from achieving the level of Karmic repair I seek, but this is the path we all choose as nurses. If you can think fecal matter and not show it in the way you treat the person, more power to you. I can't, so I have to look beyond my initial feelings and find the person in the patient. I can't do that if I am seeing his crimes, or his skin color, or his green card. I try to think of each one as he might been, or could be. Many times they see it in me and become that person, at least for the length of our interaction. Many times they don't. The few are worth the many.
Apr 2, '04Occupation: CNA Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 3[font=book antiqua]iowacindy said something that so far i feel many of you have missed.
some of us can't afford insurance while in school and yet see these families recieving services that they can't get.
[font=book antiqua]right now i live paycheque to paycheque, and they're too few and far between. i work part time, so i don't qualify for any kind of benefits. i somehow make too much to qualify for state aid as well. i don't spend frivolously (my copy of the tightwad gazette is worn & dogeared to near death, my pc and net connection are gifts), but i can't seem to save, either.
[font=book antiqua]i have had terrible root canal gone bad for the last two years, because i feel that feeding my son and keeping a job so i can have somewhere to live is more of a priority than pain. so many people have said to me, 'don't you think that it would be worse for you and your son if you had to go to the hospital over this?' well duh. but i can't. yes- life isn't fair, i have learned that the hard way and am slowly crawling out of the barrel.
[font=book antiqua]so why is it that someone here illegally gets home visits and use of the er as a well-baby while i can't even be seen??
[font=book antiqua]i believe that is the main point of iowacindy's argument- not whether the care should be given or not(from reading this thread that seems to be a choice made by the individual caregiver, not the system), nor how good that care should be.
[font=book antiqua]anyhow.. back to life, eh?
Apr 2, '04Occupation: ER RN Specialty: ER,ICU,L&D,OR,ETC ; Joined: May '01; Posts: 5,588; Likes: 566If life was fair I wouldnt be here Im sure
Apr 2, '04Joined: Jan '02; Posts: 5,673; Likes: 159Who is paying for all these free services? You and I are...the legal Americans who work to support the have nots/willnots and freeloaders. Until enough people want this changed, it will be business as usual.
Apr 2, '04Occupation: RN Joined: Jan '04; Posts: 227Quote from sagarcia210Best post I've had the pleasure to read...way to go hermano...or is it hermana?Documented or not, people deserve the right to good health care. To me , there should be no ethical dilema. We as healthcare providers do just that, we PROVIDE CARE!!! It doesn't matter who a person is, what race they are, or if they are documented or not. I wholeheartedly believe that the day a healthcare professional question if they should be providing care or not based on the fact that the people are documented or not, then that should be the day that the healthcare provider step down as such!!!
Was it the fault of the undocumented mother that the helicopter crashed? ABSOLUTELY NOT! It was an ACCIDENT! This mother only wanted what any other mother would want, and that was for her child to have the healthcare that was needed!!!
Your L&D nurse is 100% correct in her assessment of Hispanic mothers. They are here with their families just trying to have a better life. We have a large population of Hispanics where I live. Never once have I seen one abuse their child, or get arrested for drugs. It is a daily occurence for the caucasians.
Personally, I am appalled that any health care provider would even question whether or not care should be provided to ANYONE! The day that happens should be the day that healthcare provider quit healthcare.
Apr 2, '04Occupation: Inpatient acute rehab Joined: Aug '03; Posts: 2,234; Likes: 52Quote from mattsmom81Who is paying for all these free services? You and I are...the legal Americans who work to support the have nots/willnots and freeloaders. Until enough people want this changed, it will be business as usual.
You have a very good, very valid point.
However, it is not just illegals that put our economy in such a mess. What about the legal citizens whom sit at home day after day, month after month, year after year, that stay at home and have a baby every 10 to 12 months , just so they can collect free food, houseing, healthcare, and a monthly check?
What about the many, many prisoners whom we support with our tax dollars?
They get free EVERYTHING, and if it isn't provided to them, then they have the right to once again use our tax dollars to SUE???
Add up what the total of these 2 valid points cost us and compare them to what illegals cost us. Which do you think would be more?
Also, these people who have numerous babies to collect more welfare, and our prison population contribute ZILCH to our economy. At least the illegals that are here are working, taxes are getting taken from their pay, and they do not have the chance to get these taxes back like many of us do, because
they cannot legally file a tax return. So whose tax dollars are getting used for free????
Apr 2, '04Occupation: Operating Room Nurse Specialty: 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER ; From: US ; Joined: Jun '03; Posts: 17,036; Likes: 1,007Call me judgemental, but i have a huge problem with being a single female who can't afford health insurance and supposedly makes too much to qualify for the free clinic, yet i see plenty of people in my town, in this country illegally, who can waltz right in for a checkup. Meanwhile i have to wait until i feel like death warmed over and take a trip to the ER to get antibiotics, and expect at least a $300 bill to arrive in the mail. Nevermind i'm paying taxes for the crap OTHER people can use.
(Any of these Urgent Care clinics want payment before you leave, therefore i can't afford THAT either)
Apr 2, '04Occupation: FNP and Dir of Nursing Specialty: 9 year(s) of experience in ED, Tele, Psych ; From: US ; Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 274; Likes: 104what does everyone think of the two-tier model for healthcare delivery?
Apr 2, '04Occupation: Pre-nursing Student Joined: Jan '04; Posts: 382; Likes: 10There has to be a line drawn somewhere.
There is only so much money available...... it's ludicrous to think that anyone and everyone can come for free healthcare, free education and free monetary supplements.
It doesn't work.
Close our borders, issue work visa's for those with guaranteed jobs. If you can prove support for your family members, then allow them to join you. Allow migration with sponsorship.
Living in an area with an extremely high rate of illegal aliens, I see firsthand the effects they bring with them. NO thank you. We are seen as a free ride and frankly I am tired of paying for it.
Close our borders before it's too late.