Survey: Would there be a nursing shortage if...

graysonret · Mar 30, 2003

I agree. It's not a shortage of nurses, it's a shortage of those willing to put up with the conditions today. The nurse/patient ratios are horrible sometimes...inviting disaster. The paperwork takes too much time from the care of the patients, but that's to cover the facility and the staff. Cover yourself first, then the patient, is the rule. Respect from patients and families are not the norm either. What a delight when a patient or family actually expresses gratitude for the care given. On the other hand, one of my patient's family has a small camera in the room to watch the staff. Sometimes, you feel more like a household servant than a professional nurse. How about the nurse being sent to the ER because of a patient assault? Seen it many times over the years. Any follow-up? No. But if it was reversed, it would make national news. Just once, I would like an "inspection" of nursing conditions, and not patient conditions. Now that would be something. If things don't change, I'm afraid the "shortage" will continue to get worse. Why put up with this, when you can make more elsewhere, without the life/death situations and decisions? This is what said. I've been a nurse for 15 years and see changes not for the better. I continue to provide the best possible care for my patients with all the expertise I have, but sometimes, I just shake my head and wonder if it is all worth it.

nelligolitely · May 22, 2005

I agree with RN PA and NancyRN when I say I would rather get paid LESS and have more nurses around the unit. I just graduated and make $22.00/hr. in NJ in a Nursing Home. My orientation consisted of going to units that were "short" and doing what I could to help. This was lousy for me, but there wasn't anybody to train me. The facility has 26 nurses per shift. If they had, say 27 or 28 and those RN's made sure no unit was overstressed, I know I would work for even $20.00/hr.

Lys · May 22, 2005

i'm hoping to give a bit of different points of view here...

recently grad'd bscn from ontario, canada (yay for public health care, sometimes).

we need to increase the public opinion of nurses (we can recruit more kids that way, and not have their parents tell them that they're foolish for pursuing that profession).

we need to resolve the disparity of both respect and pay between physicians and nurses (yes, i appreciate that med school may be difficult, but so is nursing and nursing school...so why are they treated (and paid) much better than we are?). also, i think that there needs to be a lot more collaboration between the professions, no more "we command you handmaidens" and the "you are out of touch with client care, you've spent too long in your office" - this needs to start in school, the two groups of students have much to give and learn from each other.

management needs to be made up of nurses (and not have the current practicing nurses turn on them) because who better to manage nurses, than someone who knows what's really going on?

nurses need to start the increased respect with ourselves. no more catty behaviour (she's not doing this...blah blah...), no more gossip, leave the personality conflicts at the door and practice like professionals :)

nursing "shortage" (i'm not exactly sure on the extent of the shortage here)... we at least need governments that support nurses. at my city's hospital...we have nurses who beg for extra hours, but can't get any because we've closed wards but yet can re-furnish the ceo's office and board room for approx $70 000 (as well as give the old anti-nursing b*tch a raise!).

shodobe · May 23, 2005

More money works for me. I guess I am in the minority because I think most nurses get paid pretty good compared to a lot other occupations. Now, let me clarify that by saying yes, there alot of jobs out there that pay well and you have less stress and better working conditions. But let's face it those are far and few between. For years computers were the area to go into, lots of jobs for programmers and such. Look at Silicon valley now. Those jobs are a dime a dozen and believe me if there is someone out there earning in the 6 figures they are an exception to the rule and they should be grateful to have that job because there are a hundred others out just as qualified to do that job but can't get it. Now let's talk about having a MBA. Nice title, will open a few doors for you, might even get you a good job. As before, there are hundreds out there that want the same job as you. Competition is high and there are a lot of cut throats out there. Now, look at how many people are getting out of fairly high paying jobs to go into nursing. Why because they know that any minute the pink slip might come and then they are out fighting for their lives looking for a job.There are people in the 40s and 50s who are going into nursing.Why again, because of job security and they WILL make more than the Wal-Mart greeter or standing behind the counter at McDs. All the bleeding hearts out there that continue to cry out that, "I don't make enough for this!" don't really realize the fortunate situation they are in. I went into nursing for two things, 1. MONEY and 2. JOB SECURITY. I have both and believe me I am grateful to be in the nursing profession because I have a job to go to everyday. I know there are alot of places that don't pay as well as California so all I can say is either move to a better paying location or get out of nursing because it isn't living up to your expectations. I get paid well for what I do, OR nursing. My type of work is in high demand so I have multiple choices where I could work. But nursing in general is in high demand throughout most of the country. All written here is of course IMO and I have no facts or articles to refer to. As another poster said, THERE IS NO NURSING SHORTAGE!

I totally agree but I firmely believe if there was better pay and better benes with a good UNION representative you might lure some non-working nurses back into the force. Now before all of you jump on my case about what I have written here remember, this is just my opinion and nothing more. Mike

Nancy2 · May 23, 2005

I knew this was a loaded question when I asked it, but..... I know that issue is far more complex than just one aspect like $$$, but I just thought it would make an interesting discussion.
I would agree that most people, if not all, do not go into nursing for the $$$$$. But after they become a nurse and realize the work it entails and the poor working conditions, they start to think "I don't make enough to put up with this".
I also think that many nurses are leaving the profession because they may be looking in to the future at their long term/retirement years and seeing that their retirement benes are not great and they are looking for a more stable future.
I also tend to think that there is not as much of a "nursing shortage", as there is a shortage of nurses willing to put up with the working conditions, pay and benefits and leaving the profession.
I dunno.... I definately think that $$ plays a bigger role than most nurses say. It seems that there is a stigma that if you ask for more money, your a bad nurse, because nurses should be doing what they do for a warm fuzzy feeling, not for a fair wage??? Just my $0.02

Most of the RNs I speak to who have left the bedside to do consulting or sales, have left because of the backstabbing and b*#!*ness of coworkers and front line supervisors, not management or money. When you have to show up to work in an environment that is so disfunctional amoung staff, that is more stressfull than the workload.

debralynn · May 23, 2005

Yes I need more money, but more money doesnt help if I still have 13 and 14 patients. Its a vicious circle. In my LPN opinion, to keep nurses, and to help me from hating my job, is more staffing first, then more pay.

Franlpntorn · May 24, 2005

ok, i admit it! i will go for the money, but not in the hospital. now i will never say never. if my children were starving, i would return to hospital work. otherwise, there are plenty of other opportunities.
i have been unhappy w my hh job. not b/c i hate this job or type of nursing. it is actually much lower stress than the hospital, and i have tremendous flexibility, it is more of a managemrnt/admin thing that bothers me. the autonomy i used to enjoy so much is being micromanaged out the wazoo. i also know in this particular place, b/c i have been outspoken, i will never have a shot at being anything but a staff nurse there. but i found out about the huge bonus, and swallowed my pride and decided to take this job b/c i could work less hours and make more $$ than the great case management job i could've had w a managed care company.
i also accepted a huge bonus and raise once to leave a hospital where i worked in the ct icu and be a part of a team of nurses to implement a new ct icu unit in a hospital that was 7 min from my home. but, i threw the $$ away b/c of constant verbal abuse from one of the new docs. you couldn't pay me enough money to go back there!! two other nurses went out on psych leave which was blamed on him. my husband still rues that decision b/c if i had stayed i would've made 80k myself that year. i think he wanted to retire personally.
so, i freely admit i will follow the money, but i also believe i am worth every single penny. i give them their money's worth every single shift, and then some. i have no problem w saying we should aggressively demand more money.
check this out brian, i was moonlighting for an agency about 2 years ago, and i got a call the day before labor day, would i work in the peds unit for...$152 per hour!!! my husband is doing a jig, and i said to him, are you nuts?? i would be the only nurse on the unit w 2 kids. i have done peds icu, in the ct icu, s/p repair of congenital heart defect. the kids came to us lined up. if we lost an iv, anesthesia is in a call room that is attached to our unit, they will restart the iv. now if i am the only nurse on that unit (i didn't have a problem w that, i used to be only nurse on a vip unit years ago w 12 beds) but what if i have to start an iv? i suck at ped iv's!! plus, i never ever worked at that hospital before, no orientation, etc... it was not worth it to risk my license in that way. i probably could've accepted and flown safely under the radar, but i said to my husband, if your kid was sick and needed an iv drug stat, would you want me as your child's nurse, after what i just told you? he said, i get it now, but i still think you should do it.
so yes, i am greedy for $$, but not at any personal cost, just not worth it in some situations.
also, i think the hospitals could hire people if they wanted to, but don't, to save money. how many staff would be wiling to get sent home w/o pay? they can cancel agency, and save money in the short-term. plus, how often do they keep the agency nurse as a cushion? god forbid the icu nurses should have 2 pt's on nights for a break instead of three. but it saves bo cou bucks to cancel that extra nurse, so they do. it leaves them a cushion so admin can keep buying those new jags. i remember a thread a year or so back that described the sickeningly inflated salaries of ceo's. the "shortage" also supports their salaries!
ok, off my soap box now

i soooo agree low census on call mabe 4-5 hrs hrs if i'm lucky at :rotfl: 15.77 an hour w/shift diff. new grad but been a cna for 13 yrs. a nurse can be a cna but a cna can't be a nurse. as an rn i can do more then a cna but .... i'm an a rn let me work as one. knew what i was getting into but come on. this last week worked 1 -12hr shift and 2 days of less 12 hrs between them.last nigh was my 12 hrs the super came in the am she said we had to many people working for the number of pt's. 13 pt to 3 rn's (1 new grad) 1 cna. 7 of the pt were fall risk, 4 - were 1 to 1 care most incont w/ bed changes and turns q 2hrs. this is at a hospital not an ecf. we have one at our hospital and they have 3 cna at night but of course 1 nurse. although they have no iv's or ivpb's to hang, or beeping pumps to check out, call lights every 5 mins to answer, no iv push meds to give, no iv restarts to do after it's been ripped out by the pt, and charting every 2 hrs, and every time you go into the room. it's so much better at night right :rotfl:

when is the 6 to 1 going to be the safe number. admin just don't get it.. when you have complex pt that need care and they don't get it, it will cost money in the long run... with malpratices. 7 to 8 pt's are to much. 1 thing we have are some nice doctors, their not rude and they treat you like you have brains. but that's not going to protect you or your license. at what point is it safe. worked as lpn first job as a nurse in ecf in alzhimers unit with 25-30 pt's only nurse w/ 3 cna's. from the time i got there to the time i went home all i was doing was the pill pass. most nights no dinner, sat only after 10:45 to chart on 15 of them. was still in school but left after 90 days. was just to much. the only good thing was the double time for the hollidays and the eve's.

i look at my license from time to time at ask my self will i be ok and a safe nurse or just get by tonight at work.

can do the job w/ 6 or less but when you add the 7 or 8 that's when i worry. what am i missing did i chart it , was the iv hung, did the accucheck get done, was the pill given and the list goes on. this plays over and over in my mind. at the end of 12 hrs :uhoh3: :crying2: :uhoh21: :stone

and then if i'm lucky i come back and do it the next night and maybe get 3 days off to sleep til 7 pm and its the same day when i wake up. then still stay up late the other 2 days because ....wont be rested when i go back. stressssssssss just is't the right word. think i need the psyci ward.

? am i insane or just a nurse??????????????

nelligolitely · May 24, 2005

i soooo agree low census on call mabe 4-5 hrs hrs if i'm lucky at :rotfl: 15.77 an hour w/shift diff. new grad but been a cna for 13 yrs. a nurse can be a cna but a cna can't be a nurse. as an rn i can do more then a cna but .... i'm an a rn let me work as one. knew what i was getting into but come on. this last week worked 1 -12hr shift and 2 days of less 12 hrs between them.last nigh was my 12 hrs the super came in the am she said we had to many people working for the number of pt's. 13 pt to 3 rn's (1 new grad) 1 cna. 7 of the pt were fall risk, 4 - were 1 to 1 care most incont w/ bed changes and turns q 2hrs. this is at a hospital not an ecf. we have one at our hospital and they have 3 cna at night but of course 1 nurse. although they have no iv's or ivpb's to hang, or beeping pumps to check out, call lights every 5 mins to answer, no iv push meds to give, no iv restarts to do after it's been ripped out by the pt, and charting every 2 hrs, and every time you go into the room. it's so much better at night right :rotfl:
when is the 6 to 1 going to be the safe number. admin just don't get it.. when you have complex pt that need care and they don't get it, it will cost money in the long run... with malpratices. 7 to 8 pt's are to much. 1 thing we have are some nice doctors, their not rude and they treat you like you have brains. but that's not going to protect you or your license. at what point is it safe. worked as lpn first job as a nurse in ecf in alzhimers unit with 25-30 pt's only nurse w/ 3 cna's. from the time i got there to the time i went home all i was doing was the pill pass. most nights no dinner, sat only after 10:45 to chart on 15 of them. was still in school but left after 90 days. was just to much. the only good thing was the double time for the hollidays and the eve's.
i look at my license from time to time at ask my self will i be ok and a safe nurse or just get by tonight at work.
can do the job w/ 6 or less but when you add the 7 or 8 that's when i worry. what am i missing did i chart it , was the iv hung, did the accucheck get done, was the pill given and the list goes on. this plays over and over in my mind. at the end of 12 hrs :uhoh21: :stone
and then if i'm lucky i come back and do it the next night and maybe get 3 days off to sleep til 7 pm and its the same day when i wake up. then still stay up late the other 2 days because ....wont be rested when i go back. stressssssssss just is't the right word. think i need the psyci ward.
? am i insane or just a nurse??????????????

doesn't sound like you're insane to me franlpntorn, just a hard worker with a good conscience. one day they'll all figure it out.

**RosesrReder, BSN, MSN, RN** · Jun 16, 2005

Better pay and benefits might help recruit more nurses, but they wont STAY if the working conditions remain unbearable.

I absolutely agree.

nurse1986 · Jun 20, 2005

Here are the results of last months survey question
Would there be a nursing shortage if nurses were paid better and had better benefits? :

Please feel free to read and post any comments that you have right here in this discussion thread by clicking the "Post Reply" button.
Thanks

Money has a lot to do with being a nurse, but wanting to help someone has a lot more to do with it. I remember in nursing school the instructors told us " you will never get dirty , only work 8 hour days and the money is great" Well they lied

My other point is after being an LPN for 20 years still , I have to work full time and can't go back to school I nned to find an online home study that does not cost a millions to do. If more LPN had the ability to go back and finish we would all be RN's and maybe there would not be a shortage. We do have years of experience too

Hairstylingnurse · Jun 21, 2005

I think I earn good money per hour because I do agency work. I don't have the stamina to work more than one or two days a week. I'd work for less money per hour if the work wasn't so brutal; I could work more days and not spend my days off recuperating!

AMEN!!!!!!

:roll :roll :roll :yelclap: :beer: :beer: :yelclap: :cheers:

debroh1 · Jul 17, 2005

More money would certainly make it more desirable, but that's half the problem. I work in a state facility so the pay is slightly higher than other area facilities. However we also have mandatory overtime. Basically once a week, at a moments notice your told you have to stay an additional 8 hours, whether you come in the next morning or not, whether you have someone to watch your kids, etc.. And if you refuse you are fined 2 days pay the first time, 5 days pay the second refusal and 10 days the third. After that you are fired. On top of that it is a large facility. And you ultimately end up on a floor you are not familar with, your tired, and our facility LOVES to turn you into the board for ANY mistake you MAY have made. Needless to say there is a lot of turnover of staff. So you tell me, are better pay and benefits going to attract more people to Nursing?