Socialised Medicine the myths and the facts - page 19

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair... Read More

  1. by   KBron2000
    I know of people who call and get information from medicare. It might take patience and sometimes more than one call, but they obtained the answers. I really don't believe the US would fashion government run health care after another country. We have always been a progressive country and I do not believe that would stop. It might take awhile before some of the new drugs are added to the covered list, but that is no different than a regular for profit insur. co. Right now at my place of work I am trying to get 5 residents medication approved who have medicare part D. I've been working on it almost a week now. I looked into my insurance provided by my employer (BC/BS) and the meds are not on my drug list either.
  2. by   ghillbert
    So far, I've lived in Australia about 25-30 years, and spent a third of that time working in public and private hospitals. I have *NEVER* met or known of ANYONE who was refused treatment. I still do not understand what happened or what the rationale was.

    If you don't have a GP in Australia? Go to a GP clinic. About $45, and much more appropriate than ED.

    PS: I don't doubt your story, I just don't understand it as it's so far from my wide experience in Australian healthcare. Unless she was told to go home because it would be a long time before she was seen..??
  3. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from ghillbert
    So far, I've lived in Australia about 25-30 years, and spent a third of that time working in public and private hospitals. I have *NEVER* met or known of ANYONE who was refused treatment. I still do not understand what happened or what the rationale was.

    If you don't have a GP in Australia? Go to a GP clinic. About $45, and much more appropriate than ED.

    PS: I don't doubt your story, I just don't understand it as it's so far from my wide experience in Australian healthcare. Unless she was told to go home because it would be a long time before she was seen..??
    All I know from my very credible( Phi Beta Kappa, Honors Graduate, Masters degree in Clinical Research, and now Medical Student) daughter is she presented herself to several emergency rooms and was turned away from the person who sits at the desk. One did tell her a place to buy crutches ( without any instruction). She was in Melbourne and she was originally staying in Sydney. I believe she went to one in Melbourne and the second in Sydney. I would not know how I would find a GP in Australia, obviously She didn't I guess she and I are not as smart as you Ghilbert. I know when she was sick with a fever and I had the University intervene it took them half a day to find a GP to see her. I guess the University is not as smart as you either. As I had posted previously she had access to the credit line on my credit card and we could have transferred money in a minute.

    I have to add my daughter prior to this had traveled to Europe, Asia, and Africa alone as a teenager to visit my sister, so she is well traveled and not naive but obviously stupider than the average Australian according to you. She is a healthy person and has no medical issues other than running a high fever when sick.

    Not only did I find this practice horrible but heartless. I did work for an insurance company at one point in my career and the insurance company often flew patients home since they felt the care rendered in Australia was below par. It was the insurance company's policy not to fly people home sick to air vac home was more expensive than treatment abroad but the care had to be equal to local care.

    Also in my 30 years of professional practice I have never seen a patient turned away. I have never seen another nurse or doctor turn a patient away this is 3 times more evidence my 3o years verses your ten.. Using your logic since YOU find it hard to believe my story, the this does not happen is the US or are you implying you are reliable than me ?

    Back to the issue of socialized medicine, for this not so bright family, who probably should never travel , I think I can say, my family is average intelligence for an American. That Americans would not be able to use Socialized Medicine the Australian Version.
    Last edit by Ginger's Mom on Sep 18, '09
  4. by   talaxandra
    As ghillbert clearly pointed out, s/he wasn't doubting your daughter's account, just puzzled by how it happened, because it varied so widely from her/his personal and professional experiences here. I certainly get that this is a sensitive subject for you, but reading into it that there was some kind of attack on your daughter's intellect, veracity and/or ability to function out of America is a massive reach.

    Like ghillbert, I'm puzzled and surprised by your daughter's experiences in Melbourne and Sydney. My first response when confronted with something I don't understand and that conflicts with my experience is to find out more about it, and thereby work out how it fits into the picture I already have of how this aspect of my world is built. If ghillbert's mind works the same way then that post serves a similar purpose - to seek information, not cast doubt.

    As I hope I posted before, I'm also sad to read that the injury was so significant and had such major and long-lasting consequences. I know that makes no difference at all, but it's true nonetheless.
  5. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from C-DIFF PHIL RN
    mindless sheep huh?? so now if i dont agree with this govt plan i'm considered a mindless sheep...well thats rather arrogant. if half of the united states population has some speculations about this govt back plan its not because we are a bunch of damn mindless sheep. how insulting.

    No insult was intended-- just want to get people to really pay attention
    I simply said that I am disappointed that some people do not understand that without the public plan , there is really no competetion ---and this is the main factor that will actively encourage competetion --- otherwise it remains to be a monopoly market and soon even you and I will struggle w/ the premiums ! Even the non insured will be given a chance to get one that is affordable . <<<<<<< this is the issue w/ the private insurance !
    Now they are talking about a coop plan --whatever that is, hope it works , for all our sake!!!
    Remember the reason for the health reform is that we need a drastic change because it is not doable anymore !! People have no insurance, due to unemplyment, poverty and pre existing diseases, the Medicaid/Medical can not bear this burden of patients that the private insurance is not accepting. I do not know about you , but even I with an insurance ( my employer changed us from HMO to PPO --- the 20% of this , even I can not afford just a simple , routine tests, costs me a lot , from outpocket ! I am a single mother and grandmother, and in the old days , nurses can support their whole family , well I do not think this is true anymore. Now think of the single mothers who have a minimum wage law, and forced to use medicaid and welfare to feed their family. ( Women and children free fall to poverty after a divorce. They are getting to #1 in the poverty list) .
    I have a personal thing w/ this health reform --- all must be covered , especially children ( those that can not qualify for Medicaid and caught in between ) . These issues are very personal to me.................my daughter and my grandaughter will be in the streets if not for me.................... so pardon me for the word "sheep" ,it is just difficult not to be passionate when you have seen and experience the inefficiency of our health system , among other things !:stone
  6. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    My experience living through a life threatening illness, is that I could call my insurance company and ask questions. My dealings with US Government officials have not been that open. You can't even talk directly to a Medicare official. W
    ith an insurance company you have the option to choose another, how do you change a government plan? After reading the cancer survival rates in the UK, I am glad I lived in the USA.

    My state has done way with pre existing conditions and waiting periods. I would be happy if all states had the same.



    What State are you in? First time I heard of this. I bet , very few insurance companies there? I know we need to improve some of the government offices efficiency grade, and I know this is where some of the fears of the "government" comes from. the point is , we now have a chance to change something that was highly dominated by powerful and rich people or rich industry, and historically resistant to change. change for this people and industry is cancerous to them considering they will not be able to gauge the public or people exorbitant amount of premiums and endless limitation and restrictions of care....and yet, they will take your premiums --------this has to be regulated , or a better way to do it is to put a competetion of which will help bring prices down for the private insurance to compete against the public. that is why there is so much commotion and desperate lies all over to distract this attempt to reform .
  7. by   ghillbert
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    All I know from my very credible( Phi Beta Kappa, Honors Graduate, Masters degree in Clinical Research, and now Medical Student) daughter is she presented herself to several emergency rooms and was turned away from the person who sits at the desk. One did tell her a place to buy crutches ( without any instruction). She was in Melbourne and she was originally staying in Sydney. I believe she went to one in Melbourne and the second in Sydney. I would not know how I would find a GP in Australia, obviously She didn't I guess she and I are not as smart as you Ghilbert. I know when she was sick with a fever and I had the University intervene it took them half a day to find a GP to see her. I guess the University is not as smart as you either. As I had posted previously she had access to the credit line on my credit card and we could have transferred money in a minute.

    I have to add my daughter prior to this had traveled to Europe, Asia, and Africa alone as a teenager to visit my sister, so she is well traveled and not naive but obviously stupider than the average Australian according to you. She is a healthy person and has no medical issues other than running a high fever when sick.

    Not only did I find this practice horrible but heartless. I did work for an insurance company at one point in my career and the insurance company often flew patients home since they felt the care rendered in Australia was below par. It was the insurance company's policy not to fly people home sick to air vac home was more expensive than treatment abroad but the care had to be equal to local care.

    Also in my 30 years of professional practice I have never seen a patient turned away. I have never seen another nurse or doctor turn a patient away this is 3 times more evidence my 3o years verses your ten.. Using your logic since YOU find it hard to believe my story, the this oes not happen is the US or are you implying you are reliable than me ?

    Back to the issue of socialized medicine, for this not so bright family, who probably should never travel , I think I can say, my family is average intelligence for an American. That Americans would not be able to use Socialized Medicine the Australian Version.
    Miaow! You'd better add reading comprehension to your list of challenges.

    In case you missed it, that means that all the bolded sections are complete fabrications by you that bear no resemblance to anything said, implied or even THOUGHT by me. There appears to be a chunk of wood of some description on your shoulder that requires attention.
    Last edit by ghillbert on Sep 18, '09
  8. by   Grace Oz
    Quote from MedSurg32RN
    I realized Australia has socialized medicine, but for my family it caused permanent damage to a family member, my daughter.

    She went on a 6 month student exchange program to Sydney. I has world wide health insurance covered, but ensured that she had enough funds to pay cash for any treatment she could need. I also paid $500 to the Australian government to entitle her to reach health care there.

    To make a long story short, she sprained her ankle was refused treatment several times, and she tried to nurse her ankle.

    By the time she made it home she had to have an reconstructive surgery and now has permanent nerve damage. At least if this happened in the USA she could sue the hospital who turned a foreign girl away ( Same on the hospital in Melbourne and Sydney). So I am a bit bias when is comes to socialized medicine.

    Also according to the Lancet , US has better survival rate than Australia or the UK.
    It is with regret and disappointment that I read of your daughters experience. I would however have liked to be able to know the full and inclusive details of what actually transpired here during her endeavour to access treatment.
    Not to deny you - or her- her reality of what transpired, but I find it almost incomprehensible that she would have been denied/refused treatment in any Australian hospital. It's against the law here to do so.

    That she chose to not pursue attaining treatment from a source other than the one she initially sought help from, was her decision/choice. According to your post; an unfortunate one, since she required surgical intervention after returning to the USA.

    I wish both you and your daughter good health in the future.
  9. by   Ginger's Mom
    It is against the law in the USA too, and in my life I have never seen a person denied care in the USA. I have never read it in a local paper, heard it from a neighbor, or seen it in professional practice. I doubt the denial of care is as big an issue in the USA as the media has it. But I accept that it does happen.

    That being said, while I was not in Australia with my daughter I have no reason to doubt her story. When she had the fever it was due to a parasite in the water ( something I have never worried about in the USA), it took the University's contact in Sydney half a day to find a doctor to see my daughter. The contact was a native.

    That being said, my son when is England when he had to access care it was a piece of cake. It was told to go to a local clinic and was seen.

    I just got off the phone with my daughter, this is the details.

    Initial injury at beach, some one call the rescue squad and they gave her first aide, they told her that she did not need to go to the ER but drove her home since she was not mobile.

    Few days later the pain was horrible, went to ED was immediately asked for money ( forget the fact I paid over $500 to the government for her to access the health system) and was told that she would have to wait at least 12 hours and even then they would not guarantee that she would ever be seen and suggested that she leave.

    Those are the details doesn't seem like too much access to health care to me.

    Lessons learned ( I learned, when my son went to England, if he could not access a MD, get on a plane home ASAP). When I travel I stay in a hotel or place which has a clinic. Do not count on what you read, basically you are on your own.
    Last edit by Ginger's Mom on Sep 19, '09
  10. by   ghillbert
    So as suspected, they likely told her there'd be a long wait for non-emergent treatment [obviously non-emergent if "rescue squad" (?ambulance or lifeguards) also did not feel a trip to hospital was called for] and probably advised her not to wait, but to go to a GP? That is a long way from "refused treatment". There are any number of GP clinics in the telephone book who take paying customers.

    Have you even been to Australia? It really is not some no-technology, no-clean-water, need-air-evac-from, podunk place with limited access to (terrible) care, such as you seem to think. It's a shame that your daughter's reported experience has given you such a misguided impression.
    Last edit by ghillbert on Sep 19, '09
  11. by   Ginger's Mom
    Sorry it is hard to type with the chip on my shoulder and limited comprehension. My daughter did not refuse treatment, she trusted the system that failed her. I do not know what a GP is ?

    I guess we have to agree to disagree , but to send a foreign girl who sprained an ankle in the water and had to pulled out, instead of being evaluated by a doctor is unacceptable. To be told that there is no guarantee that one would ever be seen or take your name to wait .....is refusing to see a patient.
    Last edit by Ginger's Mom on Sep 22, '09
  12. by   dlatimer
    Maybe, we should look at the root of our system - capitalism. I could be playing devil's advocate, but maybe a different perspective is needed. Or, at least a review of what our economic system is based.

    "The initial argument that Marx must have thought that capitalism is unjust is based on the observation that Marx argued that all capitalist profit is ultimately derived from the exploitation of the worker. Capitalism's dirty secret is that it is not a realm of harmony and mutual benefit but a system in which one class systematically extracts profit from another. How could this fail to be unjust?" Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
  13. by   Grace Oz


    as you can see, australia really is a big country.

    somewhere in this country, a person in need of medical attention can and does access quality healthcare.

    that your daughter failed to pursue, until satisfied, the care she required, is not the failing of, nor a reflection on, the excellent, available, accessible, worlds best practise, healthcare, which this country is renown for.

    again, it's regrettable she had her perceived experience, and as an australian who has worked all her adult life in the nursing profession in this magnificent country, one who knows well how it works here, i sincerely feel sorry for that.

    however, to publicly denigrate a system, one which you yourself personally have no firsthand experience with, but are making judgements based on what you were told by your daughter, and lets not forget that magic word ... perception, ... i believe you are being unfairly prejudiced in your assertions.

    yes, we have a universal healthcare system here. we have public hospitals. we also have private hospitals, with emergency departments. we have walk in/walk out clinics. we have gp's ( general practioners) in private practise. we have the world class royal flying doctor service - http://www.flyingdoctor.net/ we have standard operating procedures/guidelines within each and every one of these organisations/facilities, and refusing a patient who seeks care is not one of them.

    as i wrote previously, it's regrettable that your daughter feels she was not accorded the care or attention she was seeking. it's indeed unfortunate she required surgery. no-one wishes that for anyone. but without knowing the full and inclusive facts of what transpired, from both sides, it's inappropriate to publicly critisize or make allegations unless you yourself were actually physically present and witnessed for yourself what unfolded in this situation.

    without prejudice ..............
    i wish you and your daughter all the best.

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