Socialised Medicine the myths and the facts - page 13

The first and the most obvious concern is the cost to the patient and their family, we all know how devastating an illness can be for patients and their family many times I have witnessed the despair... Read More

  1. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from maudeRN
    How long does a patient have to wait to be seen by a doctor for back pain?

    I truly agree from both of the above. Enough is enough , too much profiteering in the health system , and people falling thru the cracks whiel the insurance company is making lots of money ...at the expense of who??? the people !!!! Yes, no system is perfect , but socialized medicine must be working since other nations are using it, such as Canada, UK, France, Holland have a wonderful system for their seniors ( they put money into it and they are getting it back-- here in the US, we do not even know if those putting in for social security will get it back in the future????) We need a compelte overhaul of the system since it is not working ...obviously ! :spin:
  2. by   madwife2002
    I think the US could utilise an effective Universal healthcare system, they would need to learn from other countries where they are going wrong, what they have done wrong, how to correct it, what they do right and how to improve. I know in the UK they are streamlining left right and centre. The NHS has been in place since 1945 so there must be lessons to learn.
  3. by   VickyRN
    Quote from madwife2002
    i think the us could utilise an effective universal healthcare system, they would need to learn from other countries where they are going wrong, what they have done wrong, how to correct it, what they do right and how to improve. i know in the uk they are streamlining left right and centre. the nhs has been in place since 1945 so there must be lessons to learn.
    i like this resource: sick around the world

    in sick around the world, frontline teams up with veteran washington post foreign correspondent t.r. reid to find out how five other capitalist democracies -- the united kingdom, japan, germany, taiwan and switzerland -- deliver health care, and what the united states might learn from their successes and their failures.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html
  4. by   madwife2002
    Thanks for that Vicky
  5. by   Sade
    The American Constitution has NOT changed nor was it intended to, except through Constitutional Amendments. What HAS changed is our Constitutional checks and balances through our Executive and Legal Branches, resulting in what we see today; A numbness and a total disregarding of the enumerated powers the Constitution gives to our Congressional Branch. Look back in history. READ. Most all of the founding fathers believed that Article 1, Section 8 of the Enumerated Powers to Congress were to be taken LITERALLY. If additional enumerated powers were needed to effectively run our country it was to be granted through amending our Constitution. These Congressional Enumerated Powers were again reiterated in the 10th Amendment.

    And for those who are overtly or inadvertently ignorant about the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln and the North did not fight this war as a means to free slaves that were currently residing in the South, as can be read in Lincoln's 1858 House Divided Speech. Abraham Lincoln had NO intent to interfere with States rights. He was ONLY trying to stop the spread of slavery to the new western states. By stopping this spread both the North and South clearly understood it would only be a matter of time before there was a 3/4 majority and a Constitutional Amendment would be easily passed to ban slavery. In response to the inevitable collapse of the slavery, South Carolina seceded. Four months after seceding the North's Army still occupied and refused to leave Fort Sumter, South Carolina and the South fired on them. The REASON and start of the Civil War.

    To say Lincoln was a proponent of the Federal Government usurping Constitutionally protected States rights is just flat out historical ignorance and a stretch of the truth, if not in fact a lie. But proponent of BIG Government have use these two paragraphs above and twisted the truth of both of them to justify a Constitutional right for more and more Federal Government interference with States rights and sovereignty.

    So my question again, which it appears NO proponents of Universal Health care can answer... Where in our Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority or power to usurp State sovereignty and legislate Universal Health care and mandate that States comply??? I'm waiting........
  6. by   Sade
    The American Constitution has NOT changed nor was it intended to, except through Constitutional Amendments. What HAS changed is our Constitutional checks and balances through our Executive and Legal Branches, resulting in what we see today; A numbness and a total disregarding of the enumerated powers the Constitution gives to our Congressional Branch. Look back in history. READ. Most all of the founding fathers believed that Article 1, Section 8 of the Enumerated Powers to Congress were to be taken LITERALLY. If additional enumerated powers were needed to effectively run our country it was to be granted through amending our Constitution. These Congressional Enumerated Powers were again reiterated in the 10th Amendment.

    And for those who are overtly or inadvertently ignorant about the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln and the North did not fight this war as a means to free slaves that were currently residing in the South, as can be read in Lincoln's 1858 House Divided Speech. Abraham Lincoln had NO intent to interfere with States rights. He was ONLY trying to stop the spread of slavery to the new western states. By stopping this spread both the North and South clearly understood it would only be a matter of time before there was a 3/4 majority and a Constitutional Amendment would be easily passed to ban slavery. In response to the inevitable collapse of the slavery, South Carolina seceded. Four months after seceding the North's Army still occupied and refused to leave Fort Sumter, South Carolina and the South fired on them. The REASON and start of the Civil War.

    To say Lincoln was a proponent of the Federal Government usurping Constitutionally protected States rights is just flat out historical ignorance and a stretch of the truth, if not in fact a lie. But proponent of BIG Government have use these two paragraphs above and twisted the truth of both of them to justify a Constitutional right for more and more Federal Government interference with States rights and sovereignty.

    So my question again, which it appears NO proponents of Universal Health care can answer... Where in our Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority or power to usurp State sovereignty and legislate Universal Health care and mandate that States comply??? I'm waiting........
  7. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from Sade
    The American Constitution has NOT changed nor was it intended to, except through Constitutional Amendments. What HAS changed is our Constitutional checks and balances through our Executive and Legal Branches, resulting in what we see today; A numbness and a total disregarding of the enumerated powers the Constitution gives to our Congressional Branch. Look back in history. READ. Most all of the founding fathers believed that Article 1, Section 8 of the Enumerated Powers to Congress were to be taken LITERALLY. If additional enumerated powers were needed to effectively run our country it was to be granted through amending our Constitution. These Congressional Enumerated Powers were again reiterated in the 10th Amendment.

    And for those who are overtly or inadvertently ignorant about the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln and the North did not fight this war as a means to free slaves that were currently residing in the South, as can be read in Lincoln's 1858 House Divided Speech. Abraham Lincoln had NO intent to interfere with States rights. He was ONLY trying to stop the spread of slavery to the new western states. By stopping this spread both the North and South clearly understood it would only be a matter of time before there was a 3/4 majority and a Constitutional Amendment would be easily passed to ban slavery. In response to the inevitable collapse of the slavery, South Carolina seceded. Four months after seceding the North's Army still occupied and refused to leave Fort Sumter, South Carolina and the South fired on them. The REASON and start of the Civil War.

    To say Lincoln was a proponent of the Federal Government usurping Constitutionally protected States rights is just flat out historical ignorance and a stretch of the truth, if not in fact a lie. But proponent of BIG Government have use these two paragraphs above and twisted the truth of both of them to justify a Constitutional right for more and more Federal Government interference with States rights and sovereignty.

    So my question again, which it appears NO proponents of Universal Health care can answer... Where in our Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority or power to usurp State sovereignty and legislate Universal Health care and mandate that States comply??? I'm waiting........


    To save our bankrupt a.. ? Saude , apparently you are well read , and that is good , but you are getting distracted as to what needs to be done now, and or to debate..... this is not a matter of intellectual wrestling....................we need to act and support what needs to be done. You are entitled to your opinion, but try not to force it on others, okay? Use the critical thinking nurses are trained for. Picture this....a patient is gagging and eventually will choke and maybe die, while you are busy lecturing the patient how not to choke ! :chuckle
  8. by   lamazeteacher
    Quote from maudeRN
    "You just PAY for the extras"
    "............... gallstones.................. the surgery to remove the gallbladder.............people who have significant and frequent episodes of pain...........will be given a subscription for pain meds, as THE standard treatment for Surgery is too expensive for this many people" .
    Once laser instruments are purchased, the expense of using them is small. So perhaps blasting those painfull thinks is the real answer. A "subscription" may be weekly, monthly, quarterly which could possibly handle pain while addicting the patient to those substances, thus requiring more expensive residential addiction treatment......

    No, I think if laser isn't an option, then less invasive surgical procedures are the answer. If that fails, older surgical techniques should be allowed, rather than bring addicts to the health care scene with their other nasty habit of stealing to support their addiction. Then again, older and chronically ill/disabled patients might experience resp. failure through necessarily higher doses of narcotic analgesics, and die - not an acceptable outcome at all.

    Countries that have universal health care plans (DON'T YOU DARE CALL IT SOCIALIZED, WHICH IT IS NOT, OR YOU WILL BE SENTENCED TO 5 YEARS OF RUSSIAN HEALTH CARE) don't agree with your "standard treatment" plan for mundane illnesses. Now if spinal degeneration was the problem........
  9. by   Sade
    "we need to act and support what needs to be done."

    But you're asking me to act and support a vision for Health care that doesn't support our American Constitution or the ideals of a free market. Your asking me to act and support a socialist vision for America which we have experimented with for the last 70-80 years and it's turned out to be a miserable failure. Please do not misunderstand what is taking place in our society today. America is not going bankrupt because we've followed our Constitution and free market principles.

    I've offered several solutions to our health care problem in my other threads which are consistent with America's free market values and also our Constitution. Here is a condensed summary.

    1) Breakup the Insurance Monopolies. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

    2) Allow individuals to cross State lines to purchase insurance policies just as our Congress and other Federal employees can. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

    3) Encourage States to deregulate their laws on how insurance companies can sell their policies.

    4) Allow a tax rebates of $5000 per family/citizen or whatever figure is appropriate so family's can use this money to pay for their insurance premiums. (It is legal for Businesses and Corporations to write off insurance premium costs. WHY NOT THE INDIVIDUAL?)

    5) Tax deductible Health care savings accounts. (For everyone, but especially for those who want the freedom to choose a high deductible policy)

    6) These solutions would make insurance premiums affordable to nearly all family's. No working family would have an excuse not to be insured. With nearly everyone having insurance, the Hospitals, Physicians, and everyone involved in the Health care system would get PAID. Because all involved are getting paid this would result in a Hospitals increased ability to provide more charity services to those who are truly unable to acquire insurance, similar to how it used to be before the HMO's, Medicare, and Medicaid got involved.

    I'm still waiting...... It appears NO proponents of Universal Health care can answer my simple, simple, simple question. Where in our Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority or power to usurp State sovereignty and legislate Universal Health care and mandate that States comply???
  10. by   lamazeteacher
    Quote from maritesa
    To save our bankrupt a.. ? Saude , apparently you are well read , and that is good , but you are getting distracted as to what needs to be done now, and or to debate..... this is not a matter of intellectual wrestling....................we need to act and support what needs to be done. You are entitled to your opinion, but try not to force it on others, okay? Use the critical thinking nurses are trained for. Picture this....a patient is gagging and eventually will choke and maybe die, while you are busy lecturing the patient how not to choke ! :chuckle
    You hit the nail on the head, in a very nice, palatable way,
    Maritesa!
  11. by   dlatimer
    Saude, I appreciate your passion, but I would like to support someone who is recognized as an authority in the field of healthcare and has a plan with input from several other experts. Economics being foremost as healthcare as it is now - is not sustainable. I know only that I know very little, and as such, try to learn as often as possible.

    I appreciate a good argument, but not one-sided and preferably with someone who is open to innovation, ideas and not afraid of change.

    The only thing I know about life (and that includes government, constitutions, employment, children, etc.) is that it changes. It is the only real constant - change will always happen because we live in a dynamic world.

    Some articles I found somewhat insightful:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/op...html?th&emc=th

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/op...html?th&emc=th

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/17/op...html?th&emc=th

    I like to think I can listen to an argument that has some logical basis (of course based on my own logic, as everyone does) - and I don't know that universal care is the answer - but it is an answer and some form will be realized eventually. Healthcare is too important a factor in everyone's life to leave it to market forces. Because if left to market forces, only the wealthy will have quality care. The wealthy need a workforce that is not wealthy, but healthy and not working in fear of bankruptcy, overwhelming health bills and therefore an unstable future.
  12. by   MaritesaRN
    Quote from Sade
    "we need to act and support what needs to be done."

    But you're asking me to act and support a vision for Health care that doesn't support our American Constitution or the ideals of a free market. Your asking me to act and support a socialist vision for America which we have experimented with for the last 70-80 years and it's turned out to be a miserable failure. Please do not misunderstand what is taking place in our society today. America is not going bankrupt because we've followed our Constitution and free market principles.

    I've offered several solutions to our health care problem in my other threads which are consistent with America's free market values and also our Constitution. Here is a condensed summary.

    1) Breakup the Insurance Monopolies. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

    2) Allow individuals to cross State lines to purchase insurance policies just as our Congress and other Federal employees can. (more competition resulting in lower premiums)

    3) Encourage States to deregulate their laws on how insurance companies can sell their policies.

    4) Allow a tax rebates of $5000 per family/citizen or whatever figure is appropriate so family's can use this money to pay for their insurance premiums. (It is legal for Businesses and Corporations to write off insurance premium costs. WHY NOT THE INDIVIDUAL?)

    5) Tax deductible Health care savings accounts. (For everyone, but especially for those who want the freedom to choose a high deductible policy)

    6) These solutions would make insurance premiums affordable to nearly all family's. No working family would have an excuse not to be insured. With nearly everyone having insurance, the Hospitals, Physicians, and everyone involved in the Health care system would get PAID. Because all involved are getting paid this would result in a Hospitals increased ability to provide more charity services to those who are truly unable to acquire insurance, similar to how it used to be before the HMO's, Medicare, and Medicaid got involved.

    I'm still waiting...... It appears NO proponents of Universal Health care can answer my simple, simple, simple question. Where in our Constitution does it give the Federal Government the authority or power to usurp State sovereignty and legislate Universal Health care and mandate that States comply???


    Now, your proposals look good.......... and you do have some points. In answer to your question, in my opinion , is that no universal health or your misguided term of "socialized" medicine, are forced on the people. There are plans and attempts to resolve the health care problems ,( we better have a plan or we are done) because ther are a lot of people who do not have insurance and when very sick , they go to ER for treatmetn since they have nowhere else to go . This is bad because these poor people have no doctors to go to and when they do go to a county hospital , they wait for such a very unreasonable time , that they prefer not to go until too late and they will go to the nearest ER. How much they are reimbursed ....(medical or medicaid) is not much ---- so eventually the faciilty or hospital goes bankrupt. These are some of the factors as to why hospitals ER or a needed trauma center closed .
    Another problem is that the health care seemed to be the "capitalist" heaven of excessive profits and unethical and greedy policies, such as excluding pre existing and raisnin elderly insurance to an escalating premiums ? This is for profit purely!! We are dealing w/ people's health here! this should be regualted to make sure that private businesses is not gouging the public. This will cause a domino effect , and eventually will bankrupt anything and anybody involved in this cancerous path. You can only take so much until there is no more! Look at wallstreet......w/ all their money and glory and greed .......... look where most of us are in now ?
    We seemed to take care of things only , after the fact ........
    Now thery are talking about coop instead of public run...............it will be interesting if this coop will help put the price down .........or a wolf under a sheeps skin? We will see.
    My main reason for supporting a universal health plan is I need to see that EVERYBODY can go to a doctor when they are sick , poor or rich , old and young !!!!! EVERYBODY !!!!!!!!
  13. by   madwife2002
    I have submitted a second blog entry which may be of interest to you all who are following this part of my blog and I look forward to your comments and considerations on this.
    Thank you everybody who has contributed to my blog and thank you for keeping it a pleasant discussion forum for a potentially heated topic


    https://allnurses.com/nursing-blogs/...rt-416413.html

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