Should nurses have MSNs

[The Veridican]

I met a PT the other day who told me that the entry into their profession was a masters degree, and yet, I kind of think of an RN as a more direct care provider. I mean, PTs don't even administer medications.

Should RNs have the masters degree as the minimum entry requirement into the profession?

I'm not talking about ADN vs BSN. I'm talking about why does it seem that RNs have way more responsibility in terms of care coordination, education, med administration, supervision, procedures, etc.; we're considered a "learned profession" and yet social workers, PTs, and speech therapists have to have masters degrees.

Our feild does have a terminal doctorate degree, the D.NSc., but in reality the terminal degree for clinical nursing is the MSN. Why do we start out with only an ADN? And if that's all we need to enter the profession, why would a PT or social worker ever even need to go to college?

School me!

The Veridican

[Ross1]

It is infighting like this that serves as one of the factors that makes nursing a less then desirable profession. Nurses have hard enough jobs as it is with the demands of patient care not to mention the pressures from MDs, patients, and their families...........yet despite this, nurses have to make it even better by being disrespectful towards each other. What do nurses have to gain by making disparaging remarks about each other's educational preparation?

[Fiona59]

As a nurse with more than a few grey hairs, can I just ask something?

When nurses were either trained by the hospitals or attended community colleges for nursing, there were no major shortages. In fact, student nurses back then even got a paycheque. Most of the RNs I work with admit they wouldn't make it into nursing school today, with the required marks for admission, heck, I know 2 RNs who were trained in the '70s who don't even have the marks to make it into LPN programmes today.

So, how in all honesty do you think constantly raising and changing educational requirements is going to alleviate the shortage?

[SmilingBluEyes]

You know what; I truly don't get this downing others' educational choices at all. Disdaining MSN's *IS* no better than putting down AD RN's. Suzy is right. Such remarks serve only to incite, insult and anger others, doing nothing at all to solve the problem or unite us.

Frankly, I am disgusted and sick of seeing/reading on these boards all the rude remarks by others about people's educational choices. I am tired of seeing people just blindly slam others with little or no care about how this makes us feel.

This (allnurses.com) is the ONLY place I have seen people slam my ADN choice---- and the only place I have seen such a remark about MSN nurses ("ever see an MSN with a grain of common sense"?)

Really, I am wondering if you would say these same things to our faces, in person? If not , don't do it HERE either!!!!! No one has free license to insult others in the name of debate. End of story!

[Q.]

And how much time would it take for that benefit to kick in? What is the solution UNTIL the benefit would kick in? How many people (pts., facilities, nurses, etc.) would suffer as a result??

But we're suffering now, aren't we?

Shortages like in nursing wax and wane. The pendulum always swings; it's just a matter of time when. Many nurses who are of the boomer generation I'm sure remember shortages from prior decades.

Some solutions to the problem until the benefit is realized would be to grandfather existing RNs in, and/or allow them up to 10 years to obtain a BS, of course all while their employer offers tuition reimbursment (and most do).

The thing is, patient are already suffering. We know from studies that ONE reason why patients fare worse is from poor staffing - but this is not the ONLY factor. Lack of communication, collaboration, teamwork, etc also are factors in why patients suffer. Blaming poor patient outcomes entirely on the nursing shortage just wouldn't be accurate.

I believe that a BS entry would eliminate much of the in-fighting, would put us on par with other health professionals we work with, would standardize nursing education so that there wouldn't be these discussions on who had more clinical hours inserting foleys, and as a profession we'd be better equipped to command more respect and potentially more pay. With this, the profession could reasonably attract more individuals who are interested in a profession that is also a bachelor's degree.

I am on one of those individuals. I originally was a biology major looking to become a scientist. I entered college directly out of high school because I knew I wanted a bachelor's degree; I knew that bachelor degree prepared people make up to 30% more annually than those who don't (generally, of course there are exceptions). My only question was what would I major in. If nursing didn't have a BS option, I wouldn't be a nurse. Plain and simple. What was important to me, at that time, was a bachelor's degree first and my major second.

[mwbeah]

I think in some cases, too much education IS a bad thing, Marie. I mean, look at all the do-nothing talking heads of the ANA.

I know--heresy.

But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?

That quote is an insult and just plain lunacy.

Mike, CRNA, MSN

[fergus51]

I do think it would be nice to have things more standardized in terms of nursing education (hours of clinical time, etc), but a masters seems silly to me. You don't need that much time in school to work as a bedside nurse and it's completely impractical. If the US can't make a BSN the minimum, so how on earth could a Masters become the minimum?

[SmilingBluEyes]

Just for anyone wondering, don't expect the OP to respond now.

[zenman]

Two.

I'm # 3 :chuckle

Education is good. Did my BSN help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my MSN help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my MBA help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did my training as a Zen Shiatsu therapist help my bedside nursing? Yes. Did reading my latest book, "Healing the Soul in the Age of the Brain" help my bedside nursing? Yes. Does working out help my bedside nursing? Yes.

Let us reflect on this.

[EDValerieRN, ASN, RN]

I've not ever posted before, but I feel I should say something. When I looked around for nursing schools, I checked into both ADN and BSN programs. The closest option was BSN, so I applied and got in. During nursing school, I worked as a CNA at a local hospital. All RNs on my floor were ADN nurses. During this time, I learned more from them than I learned in my entire nursing school career.

In one of my clinical rotations, my instructor was a CNS. She was absolutely brilliant in the ED (where she worked part time), and was amazing with her patients. She is why I am now going into the ED, and I hope to be as good a nurse as both the ADN and MSN nurses that have mentored me. I can't say which is better, because I think it all boils down to common sense and experience. I do know, however, that during my BSN education, it was constantly emphasized that BSN nurses are far better than ADN nurses. Maybe they did this to justify all the money I gave to them because I chose a BSN? Also, where I'm from, there is no difference in BSN or ADN nursing education. Clinical requirements are the same, the only difference is the prerequisites for admission and a research class.

Thanks to all for the interesting debate. It seems that whatever you are at the time is what's best.

[begalli]

. I do know, however, that during my BSN education, it was constantly emphasized that BSN nurses are far better than ADN nurses.

Hi Valerie, and WELCOME!

Thanks for your post. In my opinion you have it the nail on it's head!

Recently, I have been doing some spring cleaning (yep! it's VERY springy here in CA) and I came across some of my assignments from nursing school. I was reading one of my assignments about delegation. We were given a scenario with a group of patients and staff and we had to figure out assignments. Well, as I was reading the set-up for the situation and I came across this statement, "The previous night nurse is the classic nightmare of a lazy individual who leaves immediately after report and states she can not stay to help because overtime is forbidden."

I COULD NOT BELIEVE what I read! This instructor was ingraining into our impressionable minds that night nurses, classically, were "lazy" and that it should be expected that a nurse stay over off the clock (that's how I read it) to help finish up work!

To me, nursing students are parallel to children when it comes to how impressionable they are. Kids learn behavior and attitudes of those they look to as role models. Nursing students do as well. I know I did. For these instructors to make statements such as this and like what Valerie posted about BSN superiority is absolutely atrocious.

The schools need to STOP doing this kind of undermining. It's ridiculous!

[begalli]

I wanted to add....thank you Valerie for seeing the comments about BSN vs ADN by your school for what they are. Baloney.

[UM Review RN, ASN, RN]

But still. Have you ever known an MSN with a grain of common sense?

For those of you who took umbrage at my thoughtless remark, I earnestly apologise.

But in turn, I have a question:

Was my remark any less insulting than the insinuation of this and similar threads, that ADN preparation for nursing is somehow deficient--and by extension, that all ADN nurses are therefore not as smart or as good as the BSN or MSN-prepared nurses?

Because that is how it sounds to me, an ADN-prepared nurse. The subtle insult that I somehow don't measure up because I had a couple of courses fewer than other nurses does not lessen its impact just because it's not explicitly stated. The implication is there. It's divisive, it's unnecessary, and it's rude.

Maybe we all need to think before we post.