Graduate degrees as entry-level for other healthcare professions - page 3
You all are probably aware that PT requires (or will soon require, can't recall) the masters degree for entry into practice. Pharmacists need the PharmD. Etc., etc. Did any of these other... Read More
Oct 10, '02Occupation: Patient Education Specialty: 7 year(s) of experience in LDRP; Education ; Joined: Mar '01; Posts: 7,470; Likes: 56Originally posted by cheerfuldoer
IF......AND I SAY THAT LOUDLY.........IF.....having a certain degree made a more qualified nurse, then why in the hellskee.....like my new word...........why in the hellskee don't those "so called educational differences" show up on the NCLEX in alllllllllllllllll the years nursing grads have been sitting for the same NCLEX exam? Can anyone answer me this? [/B]
My RN license is just a portion of who I am and where I fit in society, and how I can relate to other professionals of the world.
Ok, enough talking. Back to work.
Oct 10, '02Joined: Sep '01; Posts: 16,606; Likes: 680I stand on every word I ever post on this subject! However....each to his own, susy k. I have never been one to upset the lifeboat of the person at the helm of things in their own life. I float my boat......and I respect others for floating their own boat in their own way. LIFE is big enough to allow us to do that without all the squabbling over what degree is or isn't the answer.......what certification is or isn't the answer......and who has or does not have the funds to obtain the same things in life as the next person......this includes the obtaining of a certain number of degrees.
I was a very well rounded individual prior to even going to college, and I remain that same well rounded individual today.....with or without a college education. College didn't make me who I am.....I was who I am long before I was even born. :kiss
Oct 10, '02Occupation: RN- Pediatrics Joined: Jul '02; Posts: 975Originally posted by Susy K
Renee, a general 4 year university degree is not all about prepping one to pass a test or to master test-taking skills. In addition, I argue that nursing is MORE than passing the coveted NCLEX-RN. What makes me a well-rounded person and one capable of speaking at public hearings, publishing, or being respected by NON-nurses is my ability to write, appreciate philosophic roots and it's impact on society and how society(my patients) view things, how art can be therapeutic, how history has taught us lessons, etc to name a few.
My RN license is just a portion of who I am and where I fit in society, and how I can relate to other professionals of the world.
Oct 10, '02Occupation: BSN, MBA Specialty: 20 year(s) of experience in Clinical Research, Oncology, HIV, ENT ; From: US ; Joined: Mar '02; Posts: 46; Likes: 12I agree that the BSN should be the minimum requirement for entry into nursing practice, however, I also agree that it should mean something. I went to and ADN program where I learned how to be a nurse. I then completed a BSN program where I LEARNED absolutely nothing. The BSN program involved clinicals that were a waist of time for an experiences nurse. There was extensive journaling that was completely and utterly useless. IMO totally female and
A higher educational level needs to equal a higher level of performance. If it doesn't there really isn't any point.
I agree with the comparisons made to PT/OT and pharmacy above regarding independent practice. With their advanced education they've advaced their practice. They are not told what to do anymore, but are consulted.
There is no reason why nurses shouldn't decide when and if a patient needs a foley catheter or an IV or what the appropriate IV fluids and rate are, etc. BSN programs should be teaching a higher level of practice. Then there would be a difference in practice between educational levels.
Oct 10, '02Occupation: Nurse Educator: love those students! Specialty: Med/Surg,ER,L&D,ICU,OR,nrs. educator ; Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 968; Likes: 41University graduate or VoTech graduate?
Collaborator or subject to be dictated to?
Sound, intellegent reasoning or emotional outbursts, swearing or giggling?
We must pick our demeanor carefully and wear it like a uniform if we want to be taken seriously and improve our image.
Oct 10, '02Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 38,750; Likes: 16,271Most of the RN-BSN track courses I have taken so far are doing NOTHING to further my understanding and knowledge of RN nursing today. I agree with those saying if a BSN should be required as Entry level for RN nursing, *let us make sure it MEANS something.* I quit an RN-BSN program 5 years ago because the professors treated us like CHILDREN, much the way the ADN instructors did and I really will NOT PAY someone outrageous amounts of tuition money to do that to me as an adult learner with plenty of life experience. If you ask me from my experience, it is just another way for universities to make more money. So much repeated information! And so much damn busy-work! No wonder more nurses do not desire to return to school. We VALUE OUR TIME as well as OUR EDUCATION and want to get our MONEY's WORTH! Had MY way, I would more likely (and happily) pursue a BA and get some education I VALUE, history, language arts, liberal arts.......much more meaningful to ME, anyhow.
But if I wish to pursue an MSN, MHA or MPH one day, (not sure)BSN is on the radar screen for me. Will this garner me more respect in my practice? I doubt it; we cannot tell the BSN-prepared RNs from the ADN-prepared ones in any place I work. They DO NOT behave more professionally or "know" more. Many of us are certified even though we only hold ADN degrees.
And IF we are going to make a BSN the entry level requirement, we better damn well make it more accessible, across the board. I have yet to see ONE person here address that concern. That rural areas all over the USA have an access problem, not only to BSN programs, but qualified nurses and medical personnel in general, is a HUGE issue. Making the BSN a requirement will only make their plights worse, from what I can see. It is sad for me that my ADN program, properly set up, could have easily been a BSN program. The closest BSN program was 100 miles away and no, there were no internet or telecoursing options for me. For me, it was not an issue of lack of ambition, but access.
And unionizing is helpful sometimes, but is not the be-all, end-all solution to this problem. It is much deeper than that and its resolution lies deep within each of US to act, live and BE professional , united and INVOLVED. That is not something UNIONIZING can do *for* us (I know, I work in two unionized hospitals and have worked in a NON union one, also). If this were so, teachers' plights would be better, would they NOT?
Anyhow, I respectfully bow out. Because we cannot even agree to disagree here, we can easily see why nurses today have such issues out in the "real world". Thought-provoking posts, everyone. Have a good day, now.:kissLast edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 10, '02
Oct 10, '02Occupation: RN Joined: Sep '02; Posts: 166; Likes: 42I just want to say one thing about unions, even tho that part of the thread wasn't picked up on more.
Unions are not for Professionals. If we are going to be considered professionals, then we need to earn the respect of the medical community. Unions are for people who put cars together, for truckdrivers and painters. I am not putting these folks down, but these are not college educated positions, and if we join their ranks, then we are sending a loud message to the world that we are going to use thuggary instead of intelligence to get what we want. I don't think we want to be thought of as the Local Healthcare Union #109, or whatever, when a lot of us are very proud of our titles, which are professionally earned.
Oct 10, '02Occupation: RN Joined: Aug '01; Posts: 2,276; Likes: 42I have an ASN degree. At my hospital, it doesn't pay to get your BSN unless you want a management position, which I personally wouldn't take for all the tea in China. I have been a nurse for 8 years on our general med-surg floor. We have several nurses who also have a BSN and I make more money then most of them because I have been there longer. If I do go back for my BSN someday, it will be because I want the satisfaction of advancing my education. Don't tell me that I am not worthy to be a nurse because I don't have all the "theory" classes of a BSN. Most nurses that I know that have a BSN or higher and don't work the bedside have no flippin' clue of what today's nursing is about. Our DON has a Master's Degree. Ask her to come to the floor and take 8 pts and she would sink. So, would our managers who both have BSN's. Much less throw them into a critical situation where experience counts, not how much alphabet soup you have behind your name. If every nurse was required to have a BSN before they could practice nursing, the nursing shortage would be even worse than what we are experiencing now.
Oct 10, '02Occupation: Patient Education Specialty: 7 year(s) of experience in LDRP; Education ; Joined: Mar '01; Posts: 7,470; Likes: 56Please.....let's try to avoid bashing educational levels of nurses. That is not what the discussion is about. It doesn't matter if your manager or supervisior has an MSN and can't do patient care anymore; hell, I can't do all aspects of nursing either and shouldn't be expected to! Throw an Internist into an OR and tell him to do a CABG and he'd "sink" too! Tell a cardiac surgeon to care for the 26 week RDS neonate - he'd sink too! It's not about who can do what!
Regain control of our profession and our education, standardize , and then we can start to talk about BSN (or any BS for that matter) being entry into professional practice.
As far as accessibility to schooling: that is an issue that we are never going to solve. I rode the city bus for 1 hour each day to get to nursing school. My point is, we can't make everything accessible to every person. A physician at the clinic was from very extreme rural Wisconsin, and managed to attend medical school here. It can be done. It's how bad you want it.
Oct 10, '02Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 38,750; Likes: 16,271NO I am sorry, Suzy, but it is not reasonable in the midst of one of the worst shortages in nursing history, to expect all to achieve this at this time. Like I said, the majority of RN's today hold ADN degrees; that is a fact. It would make it worse to do this at such a time. And accessibilty *IS* necessary if you are going to do this in an organized manner. Nursing is different than Pharmacy and OT/PT and MD work, in that MANY MORE OF US are needed to do the job than them. Nursing has a MUCH broader scope, as you all know. I applaud your riding one hour each way to school but then if I recall, you have no kids. Much more feasible for a lady like you than one like me WITH kids and MILITARY wife to boot. The majority in my graduating class were in my same situation and in no position to travel 100 miles or more to go to school. That is a demographic *fact* from what I saw.
So are you saying you would see a good nurse like me (and 1000s more) *not* be an RN due to lack of access to the proper level of educational preparation, as defined by some? Should I be an LPN 'til that time? Remember, I am prepared as an RN, not LPN, despite my lack of a BSN. Or, do you propose we expand the role of LPN's so that ADN nurses would be LPNs instead?
And, would you see rural areas do without sufficient numbers of nurses (actually they already are, it would just get much worse), to cover their needs in order to achieve an ALL-BSN RN core? Really? I would hope not.
What sort of timeline would everyone who is for this propose in which to accomplish this goal? 2 years? 5 years? 10? I am curious. I really need to research what the ANA proposes. But in 5, 10, 15 years, how many of us will there be left to do this job? That is a very serious question, given that I have been in nursing more than 5 years and have seen many leave already. Are you suggesting more young people would come into nursing if we all had the same level of education? Perhaps; I honestly do not know, but that would be a definate benefit, I admit.
I said I would Bow out, I am sorry, but I had to comment here. I respect education highly, but disagree that all should possess a BSN to garner nursing respect in general. It is a much BIGGER issue than that.Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Oct 10, '02
Oct 10, '02Joined: Sep '01; Posts: 16,606; Likes: 680Smilingblueyes...AND......Deespoohbear.......:kiss .......I TOTALLY agree with every written word in your post comments. Amen! Amen! and I say another.....Amen!!! :kissLast edit by live4today on Oct 10, '02
Oct 10, '02Occupation: RN- Pediatrics Joined: Jul '02; Posts: 975To me education is like a long, winding staircase. The farther up you get the more you can see. The more you can see the more you can do. Nobody ever gets to the top...and some people are just comfortable being on the bottom rungs or in the middle and that is okay but everyone should realize their limitations and either accept them or strive to overcome them and NOT belittle anyone on the staircase.:kissLast edit by Mattigan on Oct 10, '02