BSN vs. ADN - page 9
I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?... Read More
Jul 16, '00Occupation: EN/student RN Joined: Jun '00; Posts: 25Thanks guys, now I'm even more confused. Just for the record, in oz, people can enter the Bach. Nursing course (3 years f/t, 6 years p/t) directly from school (after satisfactory uni entry grade in year 12) or apply as 'alternate entry' application (used to be 'mature entry'>21).
All courses cover a curriculum approved by the individual state's nursing council. On completion of course you put in application to that state's nursing council & become RN (no further entrance exam or 'boards')
My uni course has 5 clinical prac components (total 20 weeks over 3 years) including mandatory MH & optional paeds, rural, theatre, ICU. Most pracs are completed in acute med/surg.
Pracs are worked in around lectures. For example this semester (my last) starting tomorrow (yipee!!) I have 4 weeks lectures, 6 weeks prac, 1 week semester break then 3 weeks lectures. Assignments to be completed throughout semester & exams at end after week 13.
Can you see why I am so confused with your system? This system is state wide in oz, although each state sets its own curriculum an RN can apply for registration in another state & just has to supply the details, no further exams, etc are needed.
No prerequs needed either (other than min. uni entrance grade if straight from high school). To get accepted for 'alternate entry' the applicant sits a tertiary entrance exam but this is more an apptitude test not specific to nursing.
Many nursing students do work as nurse assitants or are ENs but this is not mandatory. It may look better on resume but there is almost 100% employment rate down here for grads. Some go onto further study (honours) or choose not to work for some reason but I don't know any grad in Qld who can't get employment.
Nursing is regarded as a profession & highly competative for entrance especially for high school students. Lets hope it stays that way down here.
Thanks for your info everyone.
Jul 16, '00Occupation: registered nurse/real estate agent in maryland Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 1i think that the whole issues is a sign of the state of nursing in this country. i am a associate degree rn with 16 yrs experience in a 15 bed icu with a level 2 regional shock trauma. i work with associate, diploma and bachelor prepared nurses. i cant see any difference in performance? im not opposed to more education! but from what i can see "advanced degree's" in nursing doesnt make you a better nurse. i get more upset when hospitals dont financially recognize certification in your "specialty" area of nursing. i find that the more nursing education a person has the further away from the bedside they get! if a person is going to get a "higher" degree i believe it should be in anything except nursing! in the long run you are more of a resource to your employer and your patients as well as making you personally more marketable!
Jul 16, '00Joined: Mar '00; Posts: 1,322; Likes: 297Hi,
BarbRN, congratulations on your achievements. From your post, you seem deserving of the promotion and the raise. It is quite common to promote ADN or diploma graduates to supervisory levels in direct patient care in many health care settings.
ADN and diploma nurses are appropriate for line leadership positions. Employers historically have looked to BSNers to fill not only line positions but staff positions like nurse clinician, educator, and the like. Getting a BSN should serve to enhance your options for nursing practice.
I agree, ICUnightrn, that a certification should be financially compensated. I indicated this in my first or second post on this topic as I have certifications. I am still not convinced that a BSN should not be compensated. Both certification and a BSN are recognition for additional knowledge and/or skills in a particular area. A BS whether in nursing or another field strengthens and expands existing knowledge for ADN and diploma nurses. The fact that one would pursue a BS in another area for different and/or improved job opportunities supports the notion that additional pay for the BSN is warranted. Knowledge from a good BSN program gives the practicing nurse a global foundation to work from that is limited in ADN programs and does not exist in typical diploma programs. ADN programs produce excellent practitioners, but the programs are considered by some to be an abbreviated version of a BSN program evidenced by the availability of 2+2 programs and university bridge programs. When committed, dedicated nurses from BSN programs are able to apply theory to practice after the first year or two, they tend to make excellent depth and global practictioners in all areas of nursing and health care.
Jul 16, '00Occupation: RN Joined: Apr '00; Posts: 184; Likes: 9I am a diploma nurse, but I do think that pay should be based in part on education. If I had taken the BSN program I'd be pissed at not getting any more money out of it!
LRM, it is confusing to me too how one goes about getting a degree in nursing here. They have certain prerequisite courses that they have to take and pass with high marks in order to be considered for a slot in the nursing program. Once in the nursing program though, they do attend clinicals a few times a week, just like you and I did. Where I think that the two courses differ is the amount of "extras" that one needs to take in order to get the different degrees. I believe that BSN nurses need to take more courses, not really related to nursing per say, but more of a liberal education. As a diploma nurse, all I needed to get into the nurisng program was a highschool diploma showing that I had apptitude in the sciences, and the rest of it we obtained in nursing school. ALL of the courses taken in college could be related to nursing, like psych, and communications, and sociology. But to qualify for a degree here, you can find yourself taking things like Art History, bowling, and weight lifting. And as you can see, it doesn't really matter out on the floor. I think it should, but it doesn't. Go figure!
Jul 16, '00Occupation: nurse Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 5For the record, in the stat of California, LVNs may has the same scope of practice as an RN (BSN or otherwise,) with the exception of: IV antibiotics and IV push. The may do assessments, RT, phlebotomy, IV starts, take MD orders, etc. It depends strictly on the facility, not the law. Also, education comes with experience, and one is learning everyday. A BSN is great, a masters wonderful, but do not berate those with a lesser "formal" education. I know plenty of BSN nurses that scare the sh*t out of me and would never ever want to be their patient. I know lots of CNA's that i would trust my life to. So, before one becomes too cocky about their formal education , ask yourself, what would you do without all the lesser educated that help make your shift bearable. If your are a nurse to make money, you are in the wrong profession. Didn't nursing start out as a vocation, anyway? And by the way, what's the name of the housekeeper on your shift?Originally posted by jgnc:
Just for the record - your statement "clearly LPNs should not be paid the same..." In MANY areas of nursing, they DO do the same job! Secondly, your whole point was that all RNs are equivalent so they should all be paid the same, yet there are differences in education. How do you justify your "less education" quote as it applies to LPNs? There IS a difference between RN levels of education!
Jul 17, '00Occupation: RN Joined: Apr '00; Posts: 107; Likes: 8I agree that everyone who works hard, certifies in a specialty, furthers their education, or shows leadership in their job should be paid more. It goes back to showing nurses that we are a profession, and like other professions should be rewarded for our efforts.
I guess why I thought about this topic is because when I was in school, I saw fellow students in other majors that were compensated for their degrees. I just wonder, why not nursing. Why can't we be valued that way?
Jul 17, '00Occupation: ER Charge Nurse Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 5I am an ADN and was recently promoted to ER charge nurse. I hear grumblings from another nurse who was up for the position who happens to be a BSN nurse. She has lost out twice for this position (both times to an ADN) and she seems to think that she should be hired on her BSN alone. A leader is not about initials but about capability and ability. That this nurse doesn't "get that" makes me wonder about her degree. She has never addressed me about her concerns but gripes to fellow nurses in the department, many who are aware of reasons she should not be in a leadership position.
Jul 17, '00Occupation: RN Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 4Originally posted by goldilocksrn:
I am a BSN and I feel that I should be paid more for my extra education. What do you think?
are RN's so I feel as if I got my extra education for myself it wasn't to get more pay I just wished I did all 4 years at once and not 17 years apart. Taking classes with young people 19-30. Being older 40 I had to juggle work home school all at once. Just
remember if your hospital doesnot honor the change in schooling remember. Education is a honor and not all can afford to go 4 years and 2 years is all they can do that doesn't mean their not just as good of a nurse, used
only got ADN instead of BSN . like the hospital said (RN IS RN )
Jul 17, '00Joined: Mar '00; Posts: 1,322; Likes: 297Hi,
Goldilocks, I do find myself occasionally irritated by the lack of financial compensation for my degree at the bedside. That's the reason I've posted on your topic so much. Some posters who are against additional pay for more education seem to imply that BSN nurses are not needed nor qualified to be at the bedside. Others imply that obtaining a BSN is merely a money issue. Of course, the same could be said for students or graduates from any nursing program. For those who support financial compensation for certification, how would you respond if administration discontinued that support? Would you still work on maintaining your certification year in and year out? For those who do not support additional financial compensation for BSN education, do you support compensation for certification? If by strange circumstances a CNS or NP, who also is an RN, was performing bedside care would you be in favor of paying him/her the same rate as everyone else?
I will write that I'm glad to know many of the ADN nurses I've encountered. These nurses along with many aides, diploma nurses (like me), and a few BSN and MS nurses have greatly enriched my practice. Thanks for all the posts so far. I have learned a lot. I have a better understanding of where I fit in the scheme of nursing and where we may be headed.
Jul 18, '00Occupation: educator, per diem staff, MSN Joined: Jan '00; Posts: 160; Likes: 9Just a thought....
I'll bet that if you forwarded the
first three lines of your post to your
state's Board of Nursing, they'd have a different perspective on what constitutes "scope of practice" for a
LPN/LVN and a RN.
Originally posted by happydog:
For the record, in the stat of California, LVNs may has the same scope of practice as an RN (BSN or otherwise,) with the exception of: IV antibiotics and IV push. The may do assessments, RT, phlebotomy, IV starts, take MD orders, etc. It depends strictly on the facility, not the law. Also, education comes with experience, and one is learning everyday. A BSN is great, a masters wonderful, but do not berate those with a lesser "formal" education. I know plenty of BSN nurses that scare the sh*t out of me and would never ever want to be their patient. I know lots of CNA's that i would trust my life to. So, before one becomes too cocky about their formal education , ask yourself, what would you do without all the lesser educated that help make your shift bearable. If your are a nurse to make money, you are in the wrong profession. Didn't nursing start out as a vocation, anyway? And by the way, what's the name of the housekeeper on your shift?
Jul 19, '00Occupation: RN Joined: Jun '00; Posts: 20I have an experience similar to JaneRN. I received my ADN 20 years ago and unlike my original plans have not had the time, opportunity or finances come together at the right time until recent years to pursue and complete my BSN. The reasons I wanted my BSN were more personal fulfillment and the ability to move forward in my career. To be honest I have not gained much knowledge that would improve my direct patient care, if any. Good luck to all of us no matter what path we choose or when we are able to choose it.
Jul 22, '00Joined: Jul '00; Posts: 11,351; Likes: 388I wonder if you all can tell me what you think about the situation here in BC.
Here you can either take three years of nursing and be a registered nurse (RN diploma) or you can stay for 4 years and get you Bachelor of Science in nursing. You can enter nursing straight from high school and the first 3 years of the program are the same for RN or BSN students. In the fourth year you do more community work and more practicum. All the courses except one sociology course are nursing courses (no basket weaving 101 or anything like that).
Our nursing association wants to make a BSN the minimun education to become a nurse. Nurses already working as RNs wouldn't have to worry about it, only new students. The nurses union on the other hand, disagrees and even wants to introduce a 2 year fast track program to an RN. 2 provinces have already made the 4 year program the minimun, but one province has a 2 year program. Do you all think that extra time as nursing students, TAKING NURSING COURSES (no bitter comments about BSNs taking basket weaving and geology) would have helped you when you started working?
Thanks for any imput
Jul 22, '00Occupation: RN Joined: Apr '00; Posts: 184; Likes: 9Hi Fergus!
Diploma from Ontario myself. I think of course the extra nursing courses are of a huge benefit and sometimes it shows. I've worked with both ADN's here, BSN's and RN diploma nurses. Of the BSN'S who graduated the same year as me, and started at the hospital with me, I did as well or better clinically that first year of working. The fast track program kind of scares me though Fergus.