Breastfeed or else - page 3

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  1. by   mandana
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    But there is a rebuttal to my point that uses the issue of priority: if we accept that breastfeeding is better, how important is it compared with all the other factors that go into being a parent? Is it better to breastfeed if your going to be upset the entire time you are nursing - which will negatively impact the child more? If you have to breastfeed for hours (happened to my ex-wife), is it better to do that as opposed to working on everything else that you need to get done?
    Using your logic then, why isn't it good enough for a woman to simply choose not to breastfeed? If it will make her unhappy, and therefore a less effective parent, isn't that a good enough reason in and of itself?

    And honestly, you're entitled to your opinions, of course. But you may want to reconsider holding on to this one so dogmatically since you really do not know what it feels like (physically) to go through this. I'd never tell a man that taking a baseball to the testicles isn't really writing-on-the-floor-in-pain painful because I'll never know.

    Amanda
  2. by   Josh L.Ac.
    Quote from TazziRN
    And who are you to determine that a decision is made to avoid inconvenience? Until you grow breasts and have a baby and try to breastfeed yourself, I (as a woman) would not put much stock in your opinion about breastfeeding problems.


    Because I'm not a woman, I can't see the logical behind an action? Did I say that all women that don't breastfeed do so because of inconvenience? Actually I tried to make the point that we have to honestly assess for ourselves what our motivation is, but apparently that wasn't clear.



    Fine. You don't know if I can or not because you're not a man, therefore you do not know what I know and don't know.



    Logical counter: since your not a woman, you don't know if I know what a man knows or not.
  3. by   Gompers
    Quote from TazziRN
    And who are you to determine that a decision is made to avoid inconvenience? Until you grow breasts and have a baby and try to breastfeed yourself, I (as a woman) would not put much stock in your opinion about breastfeeding problems.
    Thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking.
  4. by   TazziRN
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    Because I'm not a woman, I can't see the logical behind an action? Did I say that all women that don't breastfeed do so because of inconvenience? Actually I tried to make the point that we have to honestly assess for ourselves what our motivation is, but apparently that wasn't clear.
    No, you didn't say that, but you seem to think that many women do so. There are many who will be honest and say that they don't want to breastfeed, but you seem to think that many of those of us who say we can't breastfeed are using that as an excuse. You seem to think that if there is no obvious medical/physical reason to not breastfeed, that the woman is making an excuse. Who are you to say that we who make the assessment for our motivation are not being honest with ourselves?
  5. by   TazziRN
    I need to take a break. I'm getting upset.
  6. by   imenid37
    People need supportive lactation consultants and compassionate nurses. As an OB nurse, a big part of my job is providing teaching and up to date information. MY purpose is not to judge or villify. My greatest pleasures are the aha moments when moms and dads cuddle those babies and beam at the great thing they have accomplished. Both breast feeding and bottle feeding moms experience these moments. Most parents are wonderful people who want only the best for their kids. I trust them to figure it out. They consider feeding choices carefully. Peopel bottle feed for a wide variety of reasons, many that they may not share w/ us professionals. We are here to inform, not to indoctrinate or force a political or even health agenda on them. I breastfed all three of mine and it was easy. If it had been as hard for me as it is for some of the moms I have met, I don't know if I would have. The hard reality is that being a good parent is multi-factoral. Breast feeding, being a stay at home mom, forbidding candy, or any other number of absolutes don't guarantee that you are a better parent than me. It is a lot more complex than that. I am thoroughly sick of parents adn professionals who "don't see" why someone does not do as they do and feel that those who don't do as they do are inferior. Breast feeding is healthier than bottle feeding. It is not suitable for everyone in our society. One of my main functions as an OB nurse is to help people enjoy their babies. If a mom tells me (as a few have over the years) that she hates breastfeeding, am I supposed to force it on her?
  7. by   Josh L.Ac.
    Quote from mandana
    Using your logic then, why isn't it good enough for a woman to simply choose not to breastfeed? If it will make her unhappy, and therefore a less effective parent, isn't that a good enough reason in and of itself?
    I was pointing out there is obviously a rebuttal to my logic and that each case has to evaluated individually. That was the point of my rambling post and to also show how each situation is different.

    You have the optimum choice. Whether or not it is feasible depends on the context. From my perspective, people sometimes feel guilty when they didn't have a choice to do what they thought was right, but most of the time people feel guilty because they knew they had an opportunity and didn't take it.

    Quote from mandana
    And honestly, you're entitled to your opinions, of course. But you may want to reconsider holding on to this one so dogmatically since you really do not know what it feels like (physically) to go through this. I'd never tell a man that taking a baseball to the testicles isn't really writing-on-the-floor-in-pain painful because I'll never know.

    Amanda

    Probably true, but while my experiences are obviously different, suffering in the course of doing an action you believe to be correct is universal.
  8. by   mandana
    Quote from imenid37
    One of my main functions as an OB nurse is to help people enjoy their babies.
    I bet you are exceptional at doing just that. Your compassion for alternate points of view probably ensures that you send home new parents who have a little bit of confidence in their decisions and a thorough joy for their newest family member.

    Amanda
  9. by   mandana
    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    From my perspective, people sometimes feel guilty when they didn't have a choice to do what they thought was right, but most of the time people feel guilty because they knew they had an opportunity and didn't take it.
    These things can certainly cause one to feel guilt. My experience is different. I think that guilt is often something that is imposed on others because of expectations placed on them that they cannot or do not want to fulfill. In other words, the action isn't causing the guilt, it is the response of others - whether its tacit or implied.

    As an RN you have an awesome responsibility to others, and with that responsibility comes the need to temper your own beliefs and needs with that of your patient. Once you've educated your patient on the benefits of breastfeeding, further attempts to encourage breastfeeding border on coersion.

    I can't make a 82 year old COPD'er get an annual flu shot. I can educate him on the benefits, but if he chooses not to, I still take care of him when he comes back in with the flu, and I never say, "I told you so".

    Quote from Josh L.Ac.
    Probably true, but while my experiences are obviously different, suffering in the course of doing an action you believe to be correct is universal.
    Maybe. I really can't relate because there are few tenets that I hold onto so dearly as to cause myself to suffer. I do, however, celebrate in completing a course of action that has made a positive difference in someone's life - whether it's what I would choose or not.

    Amanda
  10. by   LilPeanut
    Now, I am a woman, and I have nursed, including a preemie who took 3 weeks to learn how to suck, and I will say that there is a difference between not being physically able to nurse because valid medical reasons, and not nursing because you wanted to go out and party. I'm not saying that all moms who give formula do it for that reason, but you are kidding yourself if you don't think that it happens.

    There is a difference between not being physically able and not wanting to. My husband is disabled and he cannot physically walk a mile. I am not disabled, I can physically walk a mile, but I don't want to. I don't like walking that much. But it would be dishonest for me to say I can't, and to complain about everyone talking about how walking is good for your health. It may be, but I don't want to, and if I feel guilty, it's because I know I can do the exercise, I just choose not to. My husband on the other hand, feels no guilt whatsoever. It's not possible, so it's not possible. There's no ifs ands or buts.

    Formula is considered to be close enough by too many people in our society, and our society itself places too much of a sexual focus on breasts. Formula is 4th-rate for feeding an infant, but when 1, 2 or 3 aren't possible, then 4 is better than 5 or 6 or starvation.

    Most women who fail, they don't intend to, but they don't have the support or the cultural knowledge (by seeing everyone else nursing) about how to nurse. It's very easy to forget that there are two people learning the skill, and one of the participants is only a few hours old.

    There is also a bizarre focus on "independence" of infants in our country, but that's another story. And a focus on independence as a person, that you should be able to hand the baby off to anyone and that's that.


    Is formula good enough? No. And it never will be. It's an artificial, static substance, compared with a dynamic, natural substance designed just for the recipient. But is it better than homemade formulas? Of course! Is cow's milk based formulas better than soy? Of course. Are both better than starvation? Of course.

    But nursing is by far better than giving the baby artificial milk.
  11. by   LilPeanut
    http://www.breastfeedingisnormal.org/WatchYourLanguage

    This is a really good article to read about changing the language we use to discuss infant feeding.
  12. by   tntrn
    Having raised two bottle-fed kids who are now healthy, well-adjusted, intelligent, and productive adults, I will have to say this article made my blood boil. I had absolutely no desire to breastfeed. And no amount of "education" or "brow-beating" would have changed my mind. The decision had nothing to do with wanting to go party, or inconvenience or any of the stock accusations people use when speaking about bottle feeding moms.

    In fact, neither of my kids ever held their own bottles. They didn't know they weren't attached to My BODY because I held them each and every time they were fed. They never had a bottle propped, nor did they ever walk around holding one in their own little mouths while trying not to trip over things.

    Labeling formula is just silly. It's not like formula feeding is a danger to the baby's health, like cigarette smoking is.

    If a mom asks me questions about one versus the other, I will give her straight answers but I'll be dipped in --it, if I'll try to skew her decision one way or the other. At the end of the day, and when she goes home with that baby, whatever she decides to do has to work in her world, not mine, not the lactation consultant and not the World Health Organization's.

    When the powers that be start telling me what I HAVE to encourage patients to do, well, that's the end. I might think someone SHOULD have this or that treatment or take this or that medication, but isn't it assault to force them to do it if they don't want to?
  13. by   LilPeanut
    When the powers that be start telling me what I HAVE to encourage patients to do, well, that's the end.
    TPTB tell you that all the time - or at least they should. They tell you to encourage people to stop smoking, to lose weight, to eat healthier, to not take drugs, to limit alcohol intake.

    Congrats on never letting your child hold a bottle. It is rare, even though you did it. Most people do allow the child to hold their own bottle and so on. It happens, but it is definitely rare.

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