Artificial feeding-Terri Schiavo

danu3 · Mar 19, 2005

How come some religions (I'm thinking mostly Judeo-Christian) would have us believe that heaven +/or the afterlife is so wonderful, but the people practicing these religions are in no hurry to get there?!?! Why are they afraid of death?
Also...if heaven/afterlife is so great, why does death (sometimes) hurt so much?
Shouldn't it be easier to get to whatever waits for us?
Sorry to stray off topic, but after reading some of these posts from some people worring about Terri suffering from a horrible, painful death from dehydration and then some about 'going with G*d', it leaves me confused.

Well, this is definitely off topic.

The answers to your questions depends on the religion. Even within a particular religion, there are going to be different answers. Unfortunately, most of the answers only appeal to the interrlect and does not speak to the heart.

In the Jewish religion, there actually is surprising little on the afterlife. There are some hints here and there, and that is about it. As for heaven, it is mentioned in dfferent context. Basically it is either in the sense of sky or a place where God is. People who died are going to be at sheol (or in some translation, just "grave") which we really have very little information on.

In the Christian tradition, heaven and afterlife are more apparent. But still, the details are sketchy as the description is highly symbolic. Basically it is so good we can't describe it.

As for people who has a religious faith and are afraid of death, if you look carefully, that is not all true. What you'll find is that some are afraid of death and some are not. My mom for instant is definitely not afraid of death. She had a heart condition in which one of the option is go into surgery. The outcome of the surger could be that she will be better than before, be paralyze, or died. She did not elect it because the potential of being paralyze. She told me if it was not for that potential, she would have taken the option immeidately, a no brainer for her. So what she is afraid of, is not death, is the suffering. From her point of view, death is graduation for her. She even planned her funeral (her graduation ceramonly), her gown to wear when she died (her graduation gown). She even took a picture of herself in the "graduation" gown and she has this big grin on her face. She firmly believe that life on earth is going to school. When she learn all her lessons, she will graduate (die). As a matter of fact, when my dad died, one of the reason she was upset (other than the obvious one) was that it means my dad had learned all his life lessons and he graduated. She was actually hopping mad at God for a little while because she firmly believe that my dad has a lot more lessons to learn because he ain't perfect! Yes, my mom has an interesting outlook sometimes. When we talk about heaven, I can see a small happy gleam in her eyes no matter how bad things are. Heaven is real to her, in her mind AND in her heart. What you observe in the other people of faith (for those who has some kind of heaven concept since not all religion has that) who are afraid of death is proabably because heaven is only real in the head, but not in their heart.

As for why death is so hard sometimes. That again depends on the religious faith a person belong to. From a Chrisitan tradition (and not all subChrisitan tradition agree on this), that is because we live in a broken world. A traditional Chrisitian faith would acknowlege that we live in a broken world and at the same time acknowlege that there is a world to come in the future that is going to be quite different, a world where traditionally Christians draw their hope on when they are going through really bad times (e.g. huge persecutions). It is the same future world that I personally witness how my mom drew her strength from in the midst of the present broken world where her health slowly went downhill. It is a world where we someday can exchange our "tent" (the earthly body) with a "building" (the resurrected body) from God. The image of "tent" and "building" is from Paul actually.

My mom died in front of me under hospice. Hospice values fits very well withing our faith tradition since Hospice neither speed up or hasten death on purpose while at the same time aim for comfort and potentially grant healing oppoturnities within a family. For us, it is a good fit for our faith because it gives us a chance to integrate our trust in God and the use of medical technology (e.g. for pain control) in a balance way. When she died, one of the thing I did was to gently kissed her on the forehead and told her to "take it easy on Paul". I said that because she once said she is going to give Paul a piece of her mind when she gets into heaven for all the things he said about women. Ever since that, we have an inside joke where she will beat Paul up in heaven. Her funeral litergy basically acknowledge the pain and grieve will all feel. Then it proceed and look at the future, the future where we all meet again. It is in the acknowledging the present grief and looking forward at the same time is where we find comfort. It is this future world that make us grief a little bit different, we greif, but we do not grief as if there is no hope. To give an idea how it is, one of the things we read was this "Grant, O Lord, to all who are bereaved the spirit of faith and courage, that they may have strength to meet the days to come with steadfastness and patience; not sorrowing as those whithout hope, but in thankful remembrance of your great goodness, and in the joyful expectation of eternal life with those they love." Notice how it faces reality (death) but it does not get stuck at the present. It moves forward to the future and it is the knowledge of the future that grants us comfort and hope.

So I hope this sharing, which is off topic, will at least show you that not all religious people are afraid of death. Also I hope to show through a concrete example, how the future world can potentially affect the present broken world. Furthermore, I know my mom is not the only one who believe this because after she died, she passed on a gift to me... that is heaven is now real in my heart, not just in my head.

-Dan

danu3 · Mar 19, 2005

Now, as someone that just "joined" Allnurses.com, I need to figure out how to prevent getting an e-mail everytime someone posts something. Do good. .

* Select "User CP" (upper left corner)

* You should see the thread that you subscribed and underneath the thread

* Select the "ccheck box" next to the thread.

* pull down the menu (below) and select ""delete subscription" and select "go"

Also while you are at "User CP", select "Edit options" and look for "Default thread subscription mode" somewhere in the middle of the scroll and pull down the menu and select "Do not "subscribe"

-Dan

lisamc1RN, LPN · Mar 19, 2005

How come some religions (I'm thinking mostly Judeo-Christian) would have us believe that heaven +/or the afterlife is so wonderful, but the people practicing these religions are in no hurry to get there?!?! Why are they afraid of death?
Also...if heaven/afterlife is so great, why does death (sometimes) hurt so much?
Shouldn't it be easier to get to whatever waits for us?
Sorry to stray off topic, but after reading some of these posts from some people worring about Terri suffering from a horrible, painful death from dehydration and then some about 'going with G*d', it leaves me confused.

I don't see a conflict here. Life is precious and a gift. We dont' jump off a bridge so that we can get into the afterlife sooner, no matter how wonderful it is. (at least, we shouldn't) nor should we starve someone to death in order to get them there either. It's not fear of the afterlife. It's respect for life.

UnewmeB4 · Mar 19, 2005

And for what purpose are you alive? What gives you the right to determine a persons purpose for life? I have worked for many, many years in nursing homes and home health care...AND my own mother went through these same issues... Terri is NOT in PVS. Anyone who has experience with this situation can clearly see that and even if she were, why should we determine its time to stop feeding her... with that logic, all tube feeders would be discontined. So, is a walkie-talkie only worth keeping alive? We kept my Mom on a vent and she had a feeding tube, UNTIL she died... and thats when her heart stopped beating... and yes, we would do it all over again....

I never said all tube feeders should have their tube feedings d/c'ed.

I have never taken care of Terry.

I cannot say if she is or isn't in a PVS.

Yes, I have taken care of people in PVS for many years, and rescusitating them...over and over...and having no one to come in and visit. I have taken care of very elderly people who DO HAVE living wills, and do NOT want a feeding tube,, only to have family members say put one in, and the poor man spent the rest of his days tied to a bed(to prevent him pulling out a tube he didn't want to begin with). I have no problem taking care of these people, especially if that is what PATIENT does indeed want.

My problem is that the people making the rules have never "walked the walk". AND, they are at the same time cutting back on the amount of money Medicare and Medicaid reimburse the nursing homes, nationally, as well as individual states...FLORIDA being one of them. Where do they think most of these people are living? Do they have any idea what these cutbacks are going to cost in terms of less patient care? Couls any of them live off a nurses aid's salary?

allnurses Guide · Mar 19, 2005

I don't see a conflict here. Life is precious and a gift. We dont' jump off a bridge so that we can get into the afterlife sooner, no matter how wonderful it is. (at least, we shouldn't) nor should we starve someone to death in order to get them there either. It's not fear of the afterlife. It's respect for life.

This is how I feel too. Life is a precious gift. We are made in the image of God. It seems silly to think that just because we believe in an afterlife, then we should do something like your example, jump off a bridge, to get to heaven sooner.

It is respect for life.

I don't believe in actively taking an innocent person's life.

steph

nurse4theplanet, RN · Mar 19, 2005

___________________
Since I have flatlined (twice) and been brought back I can truly say that death IS natural.
But even if the so called "experts" say there is no pain, they cannot know this for sure. Throughout the ages "experts" have been wrong many many times. And I am sure the parents know this. Dr.'s can be wrong.

oh I fully agree....but how do we know she is not in pain now? She can't communicate. Is it really fair to fight for her life on the basis that removing the feeding tube could possibly cause her a painful death? I don't believe that is true.

lisamc1RN, LPN · Mar 19, 2005

recovered "vegetative state" patient kate adamson speaks before schiavo rally

withdrawal of food and water was "one of the most painful experiences you can imagine"

clearwater, fl., march 14, 2005 (lifesitenews.com) - on saturday a rally of over three-hundred of terri schiavo's most die-hard supporters heard the first-hand account of the sufferings and remarkable recovery of kate adamson. struck down in 1995 at the age of thirty-three by a rare double brainstem stroke, kate, then a mother of two young girls, was completely paralyzed; she was unable even to blink her eyes. like terri schiavo, the medical staff treating her questioned the merit of continuing granting kate the most basic human right of food and water.

terri schiavo, although not nearly as severely disabled as adamson once appeared to be, is slotted to have her feeding tube removed at 1:00 pm this friday. similarly, kate adamson's feeding tube was at one point removed for a full eight days before being reinserted due to the intervention of her husband (also a competent lawyer).

frequently described by medical authorities as a humane way to die, kate - now as vibrant and beautiful as before her stroke - testified before the crowd of terri's family and supporters that this form of legalized execution was "one of the most painful experiences you can imagine." unable to respond or to indicate awareness, kate adamson asserts, "i was just like terri...but i was alive! i could hear every word. they were saying 'shall we just not treat her?'...i suffered excruciating misery in silence."

this personal testimony confirms what terri supporters have long suspected--that the execution sought by her husband michael schiavo is anything but painless and humane. furthermore, kate's remarkable recovery to nearly full mental and physical health---she still suffers partial paralysis of her left side---gives terri supporters hope that terri too may still experience a similar recovery, if granted proper care and treatment.

during her early-afternoon speech kate declared that "if they want to kill terri they should have the guts to put a gun to her head" rather than condemn her to such a slow and painful death. she finished off by summing up the full import of the schiavo case, saying, "the measure of a society is how they treat the least of us. life is sacred or meaningless, there is nothing in between."

contact kate adamson by visiting www.katesjourney.com

www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/mar/05031408.html

ayndim · Mar 19, 2005

Looks like the tube might get re-inserted.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079/

Congress reaches deal in Schiavo legal battle

Vigils continue after brain-damaged woman's feeding tube removedThe Associated Press

Updated: 4:59 p.m. ET March 19, 2005PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - As Terri Schiavo's mother pleaded for help from politicians Saturday and her brain-damaged daughter spent her first day without a feeding tube, congressional leaders announced agreement on legislation they said would allow Teri Shiavo to resume being fed.

"We laugh together, we cry together, we smile together, we talk together," Mary Schindler told reporters as supporters maintained a vigil outside the hospice where her daughter is cared for. "Please, please, please save my little girl."

'The fight is not over'

Republican leaders said they had struck a deal on legislation aimed at allowing Shiavo to resume being fed while a federal court decides the right-to-die battle between her parents and her husband.

"We think we have found a solution," House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said at a Capitol Hills news conference. "All sides agree that this is the best way to proceed."

Final approval was expected Sunday when the House planned to meet in a special session, he said. The Senate planned to pass a resolution Saturday evening that would let House Speaker Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., call the House into session on Sunday.

President Bush, who has said he favors a "presumption of life" for Schiavo, has said he would sign the bill into law as soon as it reached him. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one or two weeks if the tube is not reinserted-as has happened twice before.

Click for related content

Vote: Should Schiavo be placed back on feeding tube?

WashPost: Frist disputes Schiavo diagnosis

Bioethicist Art Caplan on the Schiavo case

The compromise was similar to a Senate bill passed Thursday that would let a federal court have jurisdiction in the Schiavo case. House Republicans had favored broader legislation that applied similar cases that questioned the legality of withholding food or medical treatment from people who are incapacitated.

Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected Friday afternoon. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one to two weeks if no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted.

Rep. James Sensenbrenner, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said the legislation would move the case to federal court where a judge would determine who has the legal right to decide the question of nutrition and hydration for Schiavo and whether they can be terminated.

Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., said the measure was "narrowly targeted," does not set a precedent and would allow Schiavo to resume being fed and hydrated during the legal appeals.

Reuters file

Terri Schiavo, right, is seen with her mother Mary Schindler, in a 2001 file photo. A feeding tub has kept the 39-year-old Shiavo alive for more than 13 years.

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The compromise marks the latest wrinkle in the long-running legal battle over the fate of Schiavo, who doctors say is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. Her husband has insisted she never wanted to live in such a condition.

"I am 100 percent sure," Michael Schiavo said Saturday on NBC's "Today." He did not respond to requests for an interview from The Associated Press.

Michael Schiavo was at his wife's bedside after the tube was removed and said he felt that "peace was happening" for her. "And I felt like she was finally going to get what she wants, and be at peace and be with the Lord," he said.

Activists arrested for trespassing

About three dozen supporters of Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, maintained a vigil outside the hospice where she lives. Four people, including right wing leader James Gordon "Bo" Gritz, were arrested on misdemeanor trespassing charges when they attempted to bring Schiavo bread and water, which she would be unable to consume.

"A woman is being starved to death, and I have to do something," said Brandi Swindell, 28, from Boise, Idaho. "There are just certain things that you have to do, that you have to try."

A spokesman for Schiavo's parents, Paul O'Donnell, later told reporters that they do not want supporters to engage in civil disobedience on their daughter's behalf.

"The family is asking that the protests remain peaceful," said O'Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk.

Protracted battle

Schiavo's parents have been attempting for years to remove Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when a chemical imbalance apparently brought on by an eating disorder caused her heart to stop beating for a few minutes. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding and hydration tube to keep her alive.

Court-appointed physicians testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

High court denies GOP request

Republicans on Capitol Hill were rebuffed by state and federal courts Friday when they tried to halt the tube's removal by issuing subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband and caregivers to appear at congressional hearings. Gov. Jeb Bush criticized a "rush to starve her to death."

Michael Schiavo accused politicians of pandering to conservative politician groups by interfering in a personal, family matter.

"These people are pandering for votes. That's all," he told NBC.

Motives challenged

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

The Schindlers also said Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her.

The case has encompassed at least 19 judges in at least six different courts.

In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted when a new witness surfaced.

When the tube was removed in October 2003, the governor pushed through "Terri's Law," and six days later the tube was reinserted. The Florida Supreme Court ruled in September 2004 that Bush had overstepped his authority and declared the law unconstitutional.

lisamc1RN, LPN · Mar 19, 2005

"when i woke up..."

by rus cooper-dowda

the following is a meditation by rus cooper-dowda delivered at the

st. petersburg, fl. vigil held for terri schiavo.

in february of 1985, i woke up in a hospital bed in boston, ma. i

couldn't see very well and i couldn't move much -- but boy could i

ever hear!

rus cooper-dowda

i heard a terrifying discussion then that i will never, ever forget.

around the end of my bed were a "school" of doctors in their white

coats, planning when to disconnect my ventilator and feeding tube. i

immediately started screaming, "i'm here!!" no one but me heard me.

they did notice my sudden agitation. they heavily sedated me. for a

time, everytime i woke up i would make as much noise and move as a

much as i could to show them i was "in there."

and they would, in response, heavily sedate me...

i then started spelling the same word in the air, "don't! don't!

don't!...."

the doctors decided that the letters i was spelling in the air were

repetitive seizure activity and just happened to occur most often

when they were in my room discussing killing me...i even took to

writing them backwards to make it easy for them to read...

and their response was to sedate me even more....

but, the nursing staff began to believe i was really and truly with

them.

one, in particular, starting bringing in a clip board and a broken

pen when she talked to me. she would put ink on my fingers, the clip

board under my right hand and then ask me yes and no questions in

the beginning.

with her i secretly progressed to answering in sentence fragments.

however, by doctor's orders she was not allowed to document in my

file what she was doing and that i was giving meaningful responses.

but...she did save my inky answer sheets and recorded the questions

she asked. she got into a lot of trouble for that.

yet, it earned me a final conference where the doctors had to prove

to the nursing staff for political reasons that all my communication

was just agitation and seizures.

at that meeting, my then husband, who was a doctor siding with the

other doctors who wanted to let me die, held that clipboard which

was my lifeline up in the air in front of me. he was not going to

make it easy.

the purpose was to prove that the nurses were basically

hallucinating and that i was really and truly brain-dead.

to prove i could not communicate, he then put ink on my fingers and

asked while laughing, "there isn't anything you want to tell us, is

there?"

in response i spelled out, "d-i-v-o-r-c-e y-o-u!" the laughter got

very nervous then. the doctors called for medication because i was

obviously having a sezure.

then the nurse who used the board first with me said, "let me try"

and "what do you need to tell us today?"

i spelled out, "d-i-v-o-r-c-e h-i-m!!!!"

there was never a questions after that about whether i was "in

there' or not.

then they said i couldn't breath on my own -- and i could. then they

said i couldn't learn to eat again on my own -- and i did. then they

said therapy wasn't important -- and it was. then they said i would

be dead within a year -- in 1985 -- this is 2003...

they also said i would never have meaningful mental function again --

yet i earned another master's degree only a few years later.

here's the real medical corker though -- they also said at the time

that i was permanently sterile. that was a cause of great grief for

me then as i had very much wanted to bear and raise a child.

but, it turned out my son, who is here at this service today, was

born at the end of that year.

it turned out that i was actually pregnant at the very moment they

were telling me i was sterile -- a simple test at the time could

have established that.

a test they didn't think they needed to do -- so they didn't.

my point is that the medical and legal staff of that world-renown

hospital were wrong and didn't listen and made startling assumptions

about the quality of life for the disabled community i had joined.

in their eyes, i only had two options then -- full recovery and a

lovely hospice death. i did spend time in a hospice against my will

fighting to get to my ob-gyn appointments -- but that is the stuff

of another story. leave it to say that it was beyond them that most

of us -- especially the disabled community -- live full lives in

between physical perfection and death.

to borrow a current phase, we are here today because of that "middle

earth." i live there as does terri, all other people with

disabilities, their familiy, supporters and friends.

even those doctors who were so sure max and i could not possibly be

here today will live in that land between perfect health and death

if they last long enough -- that is, if they don't do themselves in

out of fear that someone else will have to help them someday. then

will they ever be surprized at how much love and joy and life there

is for the asking in that "middle earth" of the disabled

community....

and therefore how much love and joy and life there is to celebrate

here today...

bugsbee · Mar 19, 2005

After working on a neuro floor for many years I do not beleive that Terri will suffer at all. It is not fair to let her live like she is. I wonder if the father has some kind of guilt because you all remember she was bulimic before she married her husband and that is what caused her electrolyte imbalance. It could have been she was never good enough for her father. Just something to think about.

danu3 · Mar 19, 2005

There are so many issues with this case.

One thing I don't feel comfortable is the assoication of hospice with this case. I mean, there are enough distortion of what hospice is and is not already.

Another thing is, how are the hospice nurses, social workers, doctors who are involve in this case doing? In my experience with hospice, they don't just deal with the patient, they deal with the whole family (and even friends sometimes). I would just hate to be in their shose.

Last, it would be interesting in the next editions of nursing textbook as to whether they will mention this case and what would they say.

-Dan

jeepgirl, LPN, NP · Mar 19, 2005

I am amazed at the comments with seeminly no concrete evidence to back them up. I am a hospice nurse and realize that this is a complex case and emotional for all parties involved. It seems a lot of comments are being made from personal beliefs rather than looking at best practice from a nursing standpoint. I do not feel the need to state my position on this case, but found a link that may be of some interest. It gives a little insight into the philosophy of hospice/palliative care regarding this issue. Artificial hydration/feeding, I suspect, will always be a very emotionally-bound issue no matter how much evidence is out there due to our cultural/religious beliefs.
http://www.aahpm.org/education/arthy.pdf
Angie

angie... what info are you talking about?

most of what we have been talking about has actually been brought up in court docs that are readily available on the web. other stuff has been from other reputable sources. you show me and i'll show you.