Any Mormon/LDS nurses here? I need help? - page 9

Hi allnurses :) So I'm currently working in a surgical onco floor as a new grad nurse and my shift begins tomorrow. I just finished a month of didactics and now we will be sent to our units. So... Read More

  1. by   mtmkjr
    Quote from vetpharmtech
    I am religious, and I think this is nonsense.

    Accommodation is great. It shows that employers appreciate their employees. Nevertheless, enforcing accommodation is just ridiculous.

    I am Vietnamese. According to my culture, lunar new year is sacred to many Vietnamese immigrants. Many employers are wonderful when they allow their Vietnamese employees to be off on the first 3 days of lunar new year. Nevertheless, other employers cannot accommodate due to the nature of their businesses.

    Guess what. I have yet heard any lawsuit from Vietnamese employees in any profession that accuse their employers for cultural discrimination.

    I guess I should encourage my people to sue those businesses for not offering accommodation, don't I?

    When I apply for a job, I keep in mind that I will bring to my potential employer's attention the days I prefer to be off. If the employer cannot accommodate to my need, I have 2 choices: looking for a different one or sucking it up. I am not self employed. I voluntarily work for someone. I don't have a right to religious or cultural entitlement.
    I would gladly work for you so you could be off on your preferred days.

    So for my previous post where I suggested there is probably more helpful advice than to just "suck it up"..... There ARE:
    1. Find someone who you can switch with in a mutually beneficial way
    2. Work evening/night shift
    3. Find nursing jobs that don't involve weekends
    Offer to work every Saturday - someone else might be pleased with this.
    4. Be thankful that you only work 2 Sundays per month
    5. If you find you are unfairly being scheduled for more than your share of weekends, perhaps look for another job.

    None of those involve demanding special accomodations. The OP didn't expect that either.

    Not single person here has suggested demanding special accommodations.

    I don't know of any lawsuits filed by a nurse demanding special accommodations to get Sundays off.
  2. by   Cakelady1
    I am former LDS so I understand where you're coming from. The church teaches that you should be in your Sunday meetings. If you're given a Sunday "calling," that's even harder. People who aren't LDS or haven't been LDS don't understand that the church teaches you have to "keep the Sabbath day holy." I used to feel an extreme amount of guilt when I worked a Sunday. It is not so easy when you are LDS, I'm glad you reached out specifically to other LDS people. (I hope my understanding is ok as a former LDS.)

    I also recommend working a grave shift. It is a healthcare reality that we are required 24/7, 365 days a year and Sundays are part of that. Work Saturday nights, or Sunday nights; and you have your solution. I started doing that when I was still Mormon. I was tired at church, especially because it's 3 hours, but I was present. But Sunday afternoons are great for naps. Good luck and congrats on meeting your goal of finishing nursing school- hope to join you soon.
    Last edit by Cakelady1 on Jun 11
  3. by   DannyBoy8
    Quote from vetpharmtech
    I am religious, and I think this is nonsense.

    Accommodation is great. It shows that employers appreciate their employees. Nevertheless, enforcing accommodation is just ridiculous.

    I am Vietnamese. According to my culture, lunar new year is sacred to many Vietnamese immigrants. Many employers are wonderful when they allow their Vietnamese employees to be off on the first 3 days of lunar new year. Nevertheless, other employers cannot accommodate due to the nature of their businesses.

    Guess what. I have yet heard any lawsuit from Vietnamese employees in any profession that accuse their employers for cultural discrimination.

    I guess I should encourage my people to sue those businesses for not offering accommodation, don't I?

    When I apply for a job, I keep in mind that I will bring to my potential employer's attention the days I prefer to be off. If the employer cannot accommodate to my need, I have 2 choices: looking for a different one or sucking it up. I am not self employed. I voluntarily work for someone. I don't have a right to religious or cultural entitlement.
    That's all well and good. Feel free to keep on with that mantra. The rest of us are protected by title VII. Also, cultural practices and distinct from religious ones and aren't one and the same (re:lunar new year). We live in a country where employment discrimination and accommodation are enforced by government agencies and by the civil courts. To suggest the EEOC is anything short of incredible is nonsense. They've been addressing institutional and case-by-case discrimination for decades and have won many battles on behalf of marginalized communities.

    "On June 1, 2015, the U.S. Supreme Court held in an 8-1 decision written by Justice Antonin Scalia that an employer may not refuse to hire an applicant if the employer was motivated by avoiding the need to accommodate a religious practice. Such behavior violates the prohibition on religious discrimination contained in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964"

    Should you encourage your Vietnamese friends to sue employers who won't accommodate the lunar year time off? Not unless there is a religious component to their request, but as you framed this issue, it is a cultural practice.

    Finally, employers are protected from ridiculous and costly accommodations by the undue hardship clause of Title VII. Which is something you'd know about if you actually took a minute to inform yourself on the matter before spewing your thoughts all over this thread. So it very well might be the case that an employer can't accommodate a request for certain days off, but that is going to be on a case by case basis. A large unit with 150 RNs would have a much more difficult time arguing that it is a burden compared to a small unit with 30-40 RNs.
    Last edit by DannyBoy8 on Jun 11
  4. by   Ruby Vee
    Quote from DannyBoy8
    It is different because it is protected by law, and should be.
    Your right to practice your religion is protected by law, and it should be. Your right to have every Sunday off to "practice your religion" is not protected, nor should it be. Other employees have the same rights to practice their religion as you do. So who is going to staff the ICU on the weekends?

    If you believe you cannot practice your religion without attending services every Sunday, perhaps you ought not to take a job where the expectation is that you work every other weekend, or every third, or whatever.
  5. by   Cakelady1
    Quote from Ruby Vee

    If you believe you cannot practice your religion without attending services every Sunday, perhaps you ought not to take a job where the expectation is that you work every other weekend, or every third, or whatever.
    Mormonism teaches that it is a commandment that you "rest from your labors" and "keep the sabbath day holy." Plenty of Mormon nurses/doctors/firefighters/police officers, etc work on Sunday but they feel guilty. I always did. In short, she will not be denied membership in her religion or anything like that but there will be guilt. Also, a lot of callings are "Sunday" callings, as the OP mentioned in her first post about being in the Young Women's. That means she's expected to be there on Sundays. Mormonism is pretty different than other religions in a lot of ways. It's not that she can't be a "good Mormon" without going on Sunday. It's that she's expected to be there because she has a job at church she's expected to be there for.

    I suggest either asking for a different calling (Cub Scouts? That's only weeknights) or working noc shift. Problem solved.
  6. by   DrNalepa
    Pray would be my first answer. You do have a busy schedule where nursing is one calling and God is the other. If it continues to be a problem for you talk to the scheduler and see if you can at least be off those hours that are important to you. If the bishop said you did not need to be there all the time, then I would explain to the youth your dilemma and go from there. Life is too short to have heart burn over conflicts that you are making harder on yourself, when you have been given an answer. Tell the youth there may be long periods you may not be there due to your job, but your heart will be with them as they go about their learning.
  7. by   vetpharmtech
    Quote from DannyBoy8
    That's all well and good. Feel free to keep on with that mantra. The rest of us are protected by title VII. Also, cultural practices and distinct from religious ones and aren't one and the same (re:lunar new year). We live in a country where employment discrimination and accommodation are enforced by government agencies and by the civil courts. To suggest the EEOC is anything short of incredible is nonsense. They've been addressing institutional and case-by-case discrimination for decades and have won many battles on behalf of marginalized communities.

    "On June 1, 2015, the U.S. Supreme Court held in an 8-1 decision written by Justice Antonin Scalia that an employer may not refuse to hire an applicant if the employer was motivated by avoiding the need to accommodate a religious practice. Such behavior violates the prohibition on religious discrimination contained in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964"

    Should you encourage your Vietnamese friends to sue employers who won't accommodate the lunar year time off? Not unless there is a religious component to their request, but as you framed this issue, it is a cultural practice.

    Finally, employers are protected from ridiculous and costly accommodations by the undue hardship clause of Title VII. Which is something you'd know about if you actually took a minute to inform yourself on the matter before spewing your thoughts all over this thread. So it very well might be the case that an employer can't accommodate a request for certain days off, but that is going to be on a case by case basis. A large unit with 150 RNs would have a much more difficult time arguing that it is a burden compared to a small unit with 30-40 RNs.
    I see. My cultural value means nothing compared to your religious value.

    I work every Saturday. I guess I should tell my boss that I want those days off so that I can go to a Seventh day Adventist church.

    Oh wait. Lots of Vietnamese people are Buddhists. The day Siddhartha Buddha was born is very important to them. So is the day the Buddha became an enlightened one. I guess Buddhists all over the States should demand their employers to have those days of so that they can observe their religious practice celebrating the days the Buddha brought the secret to escape the wheel of samsara to humanity.

    What about Hare Krishnas? According to Baghavat Gita, Krishna is a supreme being who went through numerous incarnations. If a Hindu wants to celebrate his birth, his employer should accommodate that, shouldn't he?

    I do hope OP would have her Sundays off so that she doesn't have to struggle her commitment to her career and religion. I just don't think that legal accommodation is the way. It is not fair to other people who have different faiths than Christianity.
  8. by   LoRNinFL
    I wonder whatever happened to "if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all"? Seriously people, you may not have the same views as the OP or even believe that the OP shouldn't have special privileges but that's not a concern of the OP. The OP asked a question and as nurses we should be respectful and understand that the OP probably already gets enough snarky attitudes from her patients.
  9. by   vetpharmtech
    Quote from LoRNinFL
    I wonder whatever happened to "if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all"? Seriously people, you may not have the same views as the OP or even believe that the OP shouldn't have special privileges but that's not a concern of the OP. The OP asked a question and as nurses we should be respectful and understand that the OP probably already gets enough snarky attitudes from her patients.
    I believe that fair is fair. When I came to this country, I did my best to become a law abiding citizen who work and pay taxes just like people who were born here. I don't demand special treatment, and I don't want it, either.

    I'm religious. I understand why OP feels the way she feels. However, the difference is that I practice my spirituality without asking for special privileges. The universe does not revolve around me.

    I think Christians need to understand that people who do not practice Christianity also wish to have days off for their "rituals", whatever they are. It is not fair that they receive short end of the stick just because they are not Christians.

    I doubt that OP would even have to post her question if she lived in Utah.
  10. by   Feelgood RN
    I haven't been on this site for a while. This 9 page post is enlightening me as to why I stopped coming as often as I used to. Apparently the reading comprehension of many people on this site is in the gutter. I mean, we didn't have to pass a lot of English classes to get through nursing school but we should at least be able to find and answer a simple question from a paragraph.

    "Im just worried I might get schedules that will require me not to attend church for a loooong period and it makes me honestly sad. How did you deal with shifting schedules and Church callings and responsibilities?"

    The last part of that is the OP question. FFS. OP was not whining about "having to work Sundays". OP was not trying to "forcer her co-workers to work every Sunday because she couldn't". It's seriously irritating that all these people are injecting their religious/social/cultural beliefs into the simple question of "Hey how are you dealing with ........" and you're not even helping them out.

    OP stated she new they had rotating schedule. OP didn't ask how you felt about their religious choice. Whether you work nights or days or whether you even believed in God. Get off your high horses and maybe go back and check you English 101 book. /endrant

    To the OP: I would say it sucks at first knowing you are missing out on your meetings. One thing I can say is that there isn't a need to feel guilty. God knows your heart and the intentions therein. If you truly wanted to be at meetings He knows. You can usually find someone in church that can take over your duties if you're going to be gone. If you need help you can get guidance from your bishop. Best of luck in your rotation and try to have fun.
  11. by   Kooky Korky
    Quote from vetpharmtech
    I believe that fair is fair. When I came to this country, I did my best to become a law abiding citizen who work and pay taxes just like people who were born here. I don't demand special treatment, and I don't want it, either.

    I'm religious. I understand why OP feels the way she feels. However, the difference is that I practice my spirituality without asking for special privileges. The universe does not revolve around me.

    I think Christians need to understand that people who do not practice Christianity also wish to have days off for their "rituals", whatever they are. It is not fair that they receive short end of the stick just because they are not Christians.

    I doubt that OP would even have to post her question if she lived in Utah.
    Well, some LDS nurses must work in Utah on Sunday, too, right? Or do they shut the hospitals down on Sunday in Utah?

    OP says her Bishop has already told her she will remain in good standing with the church if she has to be absent due to work requirements. He sounds like a reasonable fellow. Maybe he understands because he's also working on Sunday, as are police, fire fighters, other medical personnel, TV, print media, and radio staff, and so on.

    You say you don't want special accommodations for you to be off on days that are important to you, yet you sound angry about having to work on some of these days. Go ahead and request some of them off. Thank you for the basic info you shared about Buddhism. It is interesting and important, and I'm glad you shared it.

    It isn't always only Christians at fault, is it?

    Christians and Jews are told to observe the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    It is very hard to practice religion perfectly in this fallen world.

    Is taking care of a baby or someone else or feeding your pets or livestock a violation of the Sabbath? What exactly constitutes keeping the Sabbath holy?

    All of this ugliness kind of makes me want to forsake all "religion".
    Last edit by Kooky Korky on Jun 14
  12. by   vetpharmtech
    Quote from Kooky Korky
    Well, some LDS nurses must work in Utah on Sunday, too, right? Or do they shut the hospitals down on Sunday in Utah?

    OP says her Bishop has already told her she will remain in good standing with the church if she has to be absent due to work requirements. He sounds like a reasonable fellow. Maybe he understands because he's also working on Sunday, as are police, fire fighters, other medical personnel, TV, print media, and radio staff, and so on.

    You say you don't want special accommodations for you to be off on days that are important to you, yet you sound angry about having to work on some of these days. Go ahead and request some of them off. Thank you for the basic info you shared about Buddhism. It is interesting and important, and I'm glad you shared it.

    It isn't always only Christians at fault, is it?

    Christians and Jews are told to observe the Sabbath and keep it holy.

    It is very hard to practice religion perfectly in this fallen world.

    Is taking care of a baby or someone else or feeding your pets or livestock a violation of the Sabbath? What exactly constitutes keeping the Sabbath holy?

    All of this ugliness kind of makes me want to forsake all "religion".
    Sometimes I am upset that I cannot get the days I want to be off. However, my parents remind me that the world does not revolve around me. They are a lot more religious than I am.

    I will give you one example. After a person passes away, it is believed by some Buddhists that his soul will linger for 49 days before it proceeds to his way to reincarnation. Therefore, on day 49, it is STRONGLY advised that family and friends come to a Buddhist temple to pray for his soul and to say goodbye.

    When my aunt's husband passed away, my mother took a day off to attend his 49th-day ceremony. She asked her boss in advance to have that day off. Her boss reluctantly let my mom off that day, but she was not happy about it because it was predicted that her off day would be a crazy day for the shop. My mom did not receive any discipline after that incident, but she got her boss' cold look for 2 weeks. Occasionally my mom got sarcastic statements from her boss, but she didn't complain. She said to me "My family's problem should not be a burden on my boss' shoulders. This is not like someone in the family is sick or have an accident. I wanted to attend my brother-in-law's ceremony because his soul would not be around anymore. I needed to say goodbye to him. I brought this problem on myself. I cannot blame my boss for that."

    I myself sometimes was asked to work on Thanksgiving. I didn't like it, but then I thought that I was not the only one who had family waiting for me at the dinner. I requested the specific time to leave so that

    When I sign a contract with my employer, I have to keep reminding myself that family time and religious observance should not be an excuse not to work on certain days. Whatever happens with my spiritual practice is not my employer's problem. My need is sometimes accommodated and sometimes not, but I won't lose my sleep over that.
  13. by   Horseshoe
    Quote from Vtachy1
    Well, that was a disgusting read!!! I am appalled at all of the horrifying evil responses on this thread. I have been a nurse for 31 years, worked every single scheduled weekend. never once called in or tried to get out of it! So quit attacking us! And the disgusting people on here that attack us for the one and only reason---- We attend religious services. It is really eye opening to see nurses act like this to people of faith. I am truly absolutely 100% disgusted by these responses attacking people because we are not as miserable and hateful as you. No reason to attack us. No reason at all. You do realize that holistic nursing care is the most effective? That means that people that have a spiritual need for healing as well as physical, mental, social etc. Wow!!!! Please do, Grow up, these people that call yourselves nurses. Just because we are sad to miss our fellowship and love and support we receive at religious services does not give you the right to attack us. *fact* There is actually another life outside of nursing, we all don't worship the career of nursing 24/7 like you do.
    First of all, I agree that since the OP never said or implied that she feels entitled to having every Sunday off, some of the responses have been unnecessarily harsh, as though people didn't even really read it. But come on. Let's not engage in ridiculous hyperbole. "Evil" responses? "Disgusting"? "Hateful"? Good grief.

    No one here has displayed behavior even remotely close to "evil."

    I'm guessing some of the less than encouraging responses are the result of making assumptions not really supported by anything the OP said, as well as personal experiences with coworkers who actually DO expect their personal circumstances or religious beliefs to get them unfair accommodations. But let's not put words in the OP's mouth.

    OP, it sounds like your heart is in the right place-this will probably resonate with your coworkers and will result in some cooperation. As long as you are willing to bestow the same kindness when people who have done you a favor ask for reciprocation, I'm betting you will find the work/life balance you are seeking.

    Good luck to you.

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