Forced Organ Donations from Living Donors???!!!!

2 hours ago, traumaRUs said:

What about the medical personnel who take part in these operations?

Sometimes in totalitarian regimes, HCPs don’t have choices.  If you refuse to participate, they’ll go after innocent people like your family members.

Truth Daisy Joyce

40 minutes ago, Daisy Joyce said:

Sometimes in totalitarian regimes, HCPs don’t have choices.  If you refuse to participate, they’ll go after innocent people like your family members.

That is mostly a western construct, the whole communism bad...capitalism good thing. 

Having personal experience dealing with Chinese healthcare on a professional level what I can tell you is that there are real cultural differences and values. It is hard to understand why some things are done as we view others through our ethnocentric lens but I can tell you they likely do not believe they are doing anything wrong. Criminals are criminals right? If they can harvest fresh organs from a criminal who forfeited their right to life and save someone's life then it was worth it, right?

I have lived in several other cultures due to military service (Korea, Spain, Japan, interior of Alaska) and the articles I cited, stated that "donors" were often governmental dissidents and organs were removed while they were alive.

I had read years ago that organs were harvested from the victims of Tiananmen Square ...all those young student kidneys.  And our president speaks highly of Xie.   The Chinese have enough problems with extreme crowding and hot, polluted cities which contributes to the government's attitude that life is, indeed, cheap.

This should bring the worst global sanctions against any country that operates this way, IF and only IF, proven. Not saying the authors research wasn’t done or is incorrect. The global populace needs to start taking up this cause, to stop forcing people to donate organs because they are a prisoner or a marginalized group. 

17 hours ago, Asystole RN said:

That is mostly a western construct, the whole communism bad...capitalism good thing. 

Having personal experience dealing with Chinese healthcare on a professional level what I can tell you is that there are real cultural differences and values. It is hard to understand why some things are done as we view others through our ethnocentric lens but I can tell you they likely do not believe they are doing anything wrong. Criminals are criminals right? If they can harvest fresh organs from a criminal who forfeited their right to life and save someone's life then it was worth it, right?

I’m glad they value prisoners lives with ethics and integrity.

Free speech and right to protest not so much. It find it hard to believe that if a government would work that hard to stop a protest by shooting tear gas at people they value the lives of people who are deemed unfit for being in society.

this crackdown on these people had been going on for quite a while now. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hong-kong-protests-threaten-embarrass-china-s-communist-party-anniversary-n1060281

Edited Oct 1 by 0.5GPA

16 hours ago, AggieNurse99 said:

This should bring the worst global sanctions against any country that operates this way, IF and only IF, proven. Not saying the authors research wasn’t done or is incorrect. The global populace needs to start taking up this cause, to stop forcing people to donate organs because they are a prisoner or a marginalized group. 

Part of the challenge is that these human rights violations are exceeding difficult to 'prove' because the Chinese government has control of the records. The government obviously isn't going to divulge them to the UN or Amnesty International. Even if the UN requested the documents, they have no way to force China to cooperate since they have no legal jurisdiction over them; it's not like they can issue a subpoena. The only way for 'official proof' to make it's way to the necessary people would be via a whistle-blower disseminating classified documents, and given the horrible things that can happen to political dissidents (case and point, having your organs harvested) that seems highly unlikely.

21 hours ago, Asystole RN said:

It is hard to understand why some things are done as we view others through our ethnocentric lens but I can tell you they likely do not believe they are doing anything wrong. Criminals are criminals right? If they can harvest fresh organs from a criminal who forfeited their right to life and save someone's life then it was worth it, right?

I know this isn't what you're saying, but it makes me think of this ethics case scenario: If we had a serial killer who had been sentenced to death but was otherwise young and healthy--would it be ethical to harvest their organs? Would that allow some good to come from their life and death? Granted, there's an important distinction here: these people wouldn't be killed for their organs; rather, their organs would be harvested if they were going to be killed anyway. It makes me wonder, in the case of these Chinese prisoners: was the decision to harvest organs a deciding factor in their death, or would they have been sentenced to death regardless? 

I'm all for cultural relativism and being cautious to judge the moral codes of other cultures. However, as an American, part of what I find so jarring is that many of the victims are only 'criminals' for speaking out against the government. I know that the US values freedom of speech more highly than just about any other country in the world, so we do judge from an ethnocentric lens. Still, it seems very troubling that a country would imprison or even kill it's citizens (and 'redistribute' their organs) just for voicing dissent. It's giving me major North Korea vibes.

Edited Oct 1 by adventure_rn

On 10/1/2019 at 9:07 AM, 0.5GPA said:

I’m glad they value prisoners lives with ethics and integrity.

Free speech and right to protest not so much. It find it hard to believe that if a government would work that hard to stop a protest by shooting tear gas at people they value the lives of people who are deemed unfit for being in society.

this crackdown on these people had been going on for quite a while now. 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/hong-kong-protests-threaten-embarrass-china-s-communist-party-anniversary-n1060281

The concept of "free speech" is largely a western, in particular, a construct of the United States. Most countries have some form of limited rights to speech and expression. 

I personally do not subscribe to the concept of universal cultural tolerance but many do. For example, I think there are some cultures (not saying the people but specifically the culture) should be eradicated. I do however take great efforts to try to understand why a culture does what it does. 

The Chinese as a culture simply do not value certain "human rights" the same as most Americans. Many Chinese think forced live organ harvesting from criminals and social rebels as just and right. 

On 10/1/2019 at 1:10 PM, adventure_rn said:

Part of the challenge is that these human rights violations are exceeding difficult to 'prove' because the Chinese government has control of the records. The government obviously isn't going to divulge them to the UN or Amnesty International. Even if the UN requested the documents, they have no way to force China to cooperate since they have no legal jurisdiction over them; it's not like they can issue a subpoena. The only way for 'official proof' to make it's way to the necessary people would be via a whistle-blower disseminating classified documents, and given the horrible things that can happen to political dissidents (case and point, having your organs harvested) that seems highly unlikely.

I know this isn't what you're saying, but it makes me think of this ethics case scenario: If we had a serial killer who had been sentenced to death but was otherwise young and healthy--would it be ethical to harvest their organs? Would that allow some good to come from their life and death? Granted, there's an important distinction here: these people wouldn't be killed for their organs; rather, their organs would be harvested if they were going to be killed anyway. It makes me wonder, in the case of these Chinese prisoners: was the decision to harvest organs a deciding factor in their death, or would they have been sentenced to death regardless? 

I'm all for cultural relativism and being cautious to judge the moral codes of other cultures. However, as an American, part of what I find so jarring is that many of the victims are only 'criminals' for speaking out against the government. I know that the US values freedom of speech more highly than just about any other country in the world, so we do judge from an ethnocentric lens. Still, it seems very troubling that a country would imprison or even kill it's citizens (and 'redistribute' their organs) just for voicing dissent. It's giving me major North Korea vibes.

I think concepts like cultural context and relativism are important for us to understand but I personally do not believe in universal cultural tolerance. I think it is more than just troubling but an indication of possible cultural incompatibility. 

For a long time the United States has waged cultural war (not to be confused with physical war) throughout the world. We did it with Commodore Perry as he landed in Japan in 1853 and have continued this policy with varying degrees of formality throughout the years. 

For a long time we have ignored China, with rare exceptions such as Nixon's visit in 72, but I think the recent events are evidence that we might need to step up the pressure. 

Friedman in the 90's put forth the saying that "No two countries with a McDonald's will wage war." This is of course patently false but I think the general underlying concept is very wise. Instead of sending planes full of bombs, we send fast food workers with bags of fries. You wage a cultural war and destroy the undesirable cultural elements that you find hostile to "human rights." Elements of cultural warfare can be seen in the post Civil War Reconstruction program, and both post WWII Japanese and German reconstruction programs. 

On 9/30/2019 at 9:26 PM, AggieNurse99 said:

This should bring the worst global sanctions against any country that operates this way, IF and only IF, proven. Not saying the authors research wasn’t done or is incorrect. The global populace needs to start taking up this cause, to stop forcing people to donate organs because they are a prisoner or a marginalized group. 

The Chinese organ harvesting program is just re-surging in the news due to their protests in Hong Kong but it is both well-known and well-documented. It is not a secret and has not been a secret for the last 30 years. There are entire documentaries and advertisements in China for organ transplants from involuntary "donors." This is a well-known industry that sits at their cornerstone of healthcare tourism. 

People are afraid to upset China due to the size of their GDP and influence on the global markets, partly why people were/are upset with the U.S. "trade war" with China. China's government is not good, for values of good, and is not compatible with the world's values of "human rights." 

The global community needs to put it's big boy/girl pants on and confront China's numerous human rights issues.