Will DNPs be chosen over MSNs?

[Le-Lee_FNP]

There has been a lot of talk about the possible saturation of the NP market as well as that of other advanced practice nursing roles (CRNA for example) and I am just wondering if this is true, then will the DNP new grads have a better chance at obtaining a job then MSNs will? I am just wondering if it will be the same as when the market got tight for RNs, and BSNs were hired over ASNs and diploma nurses. Do you all anticipate the same situation occuring in Advanced Practice Nursing, even if the "requirement" isn't fully implemented?

[CCRNDiva, BSN, RN]

Thanks for clarifying.

Is there any way you can add electives into the DNP program that would give you the specific coursework you seek? (either your local program or a distant one). You could choose electives from other disciplines that would cover the additional physiology, pharmacology, etc. that you seek.

Another option would be to focus your capstone project on something focused on physical care, physiology, etc. At the doctoral level of education (DNP or PhD), it's expected that a lot of the specific topic education happens through the conduct of projects rather than being covered directly in coursework. For example, the coursework of a PhD program focuses mainly on research processes, philosophy, and theory. The student then becomes an expert in a specific topic (or practice area) as they use those processes to do research on their chosen topic. The PhD student might not take any actual courses in their topic area, they learn by doing readings, doing research, and practicing in their chosen practice field. You could design your capstone project to incorporate the learning of the content you seek and the completion of your project would document your expertise in that area. That's the nature of doctoral education -- less "formal programing" and much more "independent learning" through the conduct of individualized projects.

Finally, for the entrance essay itself ... I would state the type of role you seek (which is basically a NP in an acute care setting -- similar to Neonatal NP's) and then talk about the nursing leadership aspects of that role. People who function in those types of roles are expected to lead practice improvement projects, help with staff education, etc. as well as provide direct patient care. It wouldn't be much of a stretch -- and the faculty knows that roles for DNP's are still very hazy. They are probably much more interested in how well you can think these things through than your specific job plans.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've since missed the application deadline for their DNP program but I did apply to the MSN program.

[CCRNDiva, BSN, RN]

Tell that to the people who are going around making public statements about how DNP-prepared NPs will be the equivalent of physicians -- that's what's creating the ill will and opposition within the medical community. Physicians don't have any problem with those other doctorally-prepared professionals because they don't perceive them as attempting to take over physicians' "turf." But that's not the case with some of the loudest voices touting the supposed advantages of the DNP degree.

You make very good points. PharmDs, PTs and the like realize they have to work WITH physicians, they're not trying to practice without them. When the nursing profession realizes we are part of a team that needs physicians as well as nurses we will be so much better off.

I swear, sometimes we (the nursing profession) act like a toddler kicking and screaming in the middle of a room, "I'm a professional!" We are consistently rated the most trusted profession so we don't need to keep focusing on that. Let's address the deficiencies in our programs and move on. I'm not denying the importance of nurses but sometimes nurses deny the importance of physicians. I work in the intensive care unit and often have patients treated by residents. While there may be things I know or are more comfortable with than them, I must acknowledge they have more education than me. We are more successful when we are respectful of each other's knowledge and talents. We all serve to imrove the lives of our patients be it as doctor or nurse, we should work as a team and stop taking shots at each other. Just my 2 cents.

[elkpark]

I swear, sometimes we (the nursing profession) act like a toddler kicking and screaming in the middle of a room, "I'm a professional!"

So true, but not all of us, just some within nursing ... :)

[CCRNDiva, BSN, RN]

:lol2: :lol2:

So true, but not all of us, just some within nursing ... :)

You're right, it's just some not all of us!!

[CRF250Xpert]

The DNP seems to fit into this category to me. A solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

+1. I'm going to focus on enjoying my family, continue CME, journal reading, and discussing scenerios. Going back to college for a degree that I don't need just doesn't make sense. PT has already mandated it and it's a running joke since they refuse 1/2 of my referrals anyway. A whole clinic full of PhDs that won't see my patients anyway - must be a "how to get out of work" class in post grad school.

[linearthinker, DNP, RN]

You guys should be cheering on your colleagues efforts. Rising tides raise all boats.

[Le-Lee_FNP, MSN, RN, NP]

Just to clarify, I am well aware that experience supersedes education and that if a new grad DNP had to compete with a MSN with 10 plus years experience, their would be no comparison. However I am fairly young and anticipate over 30 years of practicing as a NP after I graduate (end of next year). So I really wanted to know everyone's "opinion" about whether or not new grad DNP NPs will be chosen over new grad MSN NPs within the next five years or so. If I need to go back for a doctorate degree I'd much rather just keep going rather than stop and figure out that I'm competing with more DNPs. I am only asking because when I graduated from nursing school originally with my ASN, there were many jobs that had an overwhelming amount of applicants and they had to narrow it down by selecting BSNs over ASNs. I just don't want to be in a situation where I am competing with other applicants for a job as a new grad and I am ruled out because I have an MSN and the other applicant(s) have DNPs.

[Lovanurse]

You make very good points. PharmDs, PTs and the like realize they have to work WITH physicians, they're not trying to practice without them. When the nursing profession realizes we are part of a team that needs physicians as well as nurses we will be so much better off.

I swear, sometimes we (the nursing profession) act like a toddler kicking and screaming in the middle of a room, "I'm a professional!" We are consistently rated the most trusted profession so we don't need to keep focusing on that. Let's address the deficiencies in our programs and move on. I'm not denying the importance of nurses but sometimes nurses deny the importance of physicians. I work in the intensive care unit and often have patients treated by residents. While there may be things I know or are more comfortable with than them, I must acknowledge they have more education than me. We are more successful when we are respectful of each other's knowledge and talents. We all serve to imrove the lives of our patients be it as doctor or nurse, we should work as a team and stop taking shots at each other. Just my 2 cents.

You hit the nail right on the head. Respect each others training. Would it be so terrible if we could work WITH physicians just like any other clinically prepared doctor? I don't see physicians trying or wanting to oversee a podiatrist. If they come across something that is out of their scope of practice, they refer back to the physician. MD's respect their educational background enough to let them do what they are trained to do. I'm not speaking for any other NP or DNP but it would be nice to be acknowledged for the 8+ years I spent in school also. I don't have the same training or the same education as a physician, but DNP's are trained to assess, diagnose, treat, and prescribe just like a clinically prepared doctor would. When there is something that is out of my scope of practice, I will refer to a physician or to the appropriate provider. I have no problem staying in my lane. We don't need a babysitter to keep us there. Or if you want to oversee DNP's then oversee ALL doctorates.

[Lovanurse]

Getting back to the original post. I don't think MSN's ms DNP's will have to compete in the near future. Especially in primary care with health care reform. We will all be valued the same.

[Le-Lee_FNP, MSN, RN, NP]

Getting back to the original post. I don't think MSN's ms DNP's will have to compete in the near future. Especially in primary care with health care reform. We will all be valued the same.

Thank you for answering my question. I was wondering if this post would spur another MSN vs DNP debate which is not what I intended. Nurses are pretty passionate about their opinions of whether they are for or against the DNP and the pros and cons both politically and in practice. I personally am undecided on the issue of what I "think" about the DNP, but I would pursue it regardless if it would enhance my employment opportunities.

[elkpark]

If the question is about new grad DNPs vs. new grad MSNs, I think the jury is still out on that question. Simply speaking realistically, not attempting to stir up any controversy or ill will, everyone in healthcare is v. familiar with the MSN model of preparation for advanced practice nursing, and I'm not sure the larger healthcare community (outside of nursing academia) really understands why that model needs to be changed/improved. If DNP-prepared people can demonstrate to the larger healthcare community over time that they have some obvious, substantive advantage over MSN-prepared people in the same role, the tide may turn.

Or, if the pro-DNP faction within academia can succeed in getting the DNP mandated as the minimum entry into advanced practice, the question will be moot (at least as far as newer grads are concerned -- there will still be that pesky issue of competing with MSN-prepared people with years of experience).

[CCRNDiva, BSN, RN]

Thank you for answering my question. I was wondering if this post would spur another MSN vs DNP debate which is not what I intended. Nurses are pretty passionate about their opinions of whether they are for or against the DNP and the pros and cons both politically and in practice. I personally am undecided on the issue of what I "think" about the DNP, but I would pursue it regardless if it would enhance my employment opportunities.

I apologize for hi-jacking your thread. It was not my intention. I was trying to make the point that the DNP programs that I have investigated do not truly address clinical practice as expected and instead focus on developing leadership. I think you will be fine with pursuing the MSN. I have decided to pursue the MSN instead of the the DNP for the reasons listed. I think these DNP programs need to be fine tuned a bit before I commit to the additional tuition to pursue it.