Doctoral degree to become an NP???

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The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) is calling for the requirement of doctorate in nursing for advanced practice nurses, such as nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, clinical nurse specialists, and nurse anesthetists. This new degree will be called a Doctor of Nursing Practice and, if the AACN has its way, will become the entry level for advanced nursing practice.

AACN Position Statement on the Practice Doctorate in Nursing

Specializes in Education, FP, LNC, Forensics, ED, OB.

Yes, but that input has since been edited from both posts, jzzy88.

Please keep RN entry level topics within the thread link I posted and keep MSN/DNP issues relegated to this thread.

The article you linked to has been posted within this thread, too. But, we all can be re-reminded of the content.

Thank you.

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does public perception affect the well being of patients? and where is the evidence that suggests that nursing preparedness is lacking in masters programs?

it seems to me part of the push for required dr level training is based on ego and wanting more esteem.

additionally, the masters program at ucsf is the best in the nation and i trust that they adequately prepare nps,

j

i would have to agree part of the "push" is esteem which i feel is a good thing. i find the high number of credits required for a ms is not representative of the education, adding a few classes for the dnp is a better representation of the np educational pursuit.

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Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.

I would be okay with a few extra classes, but not 2 extra years, and not if is detrimental to the PhD in nursing. I just do not feel it should be a must if masters trained NPs are just as good. It should be an option,not a requirement, in my opinion. Thanks for all the input!

J

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.

There have been a number of comments here that have concerned me and raised even more questions.

1. Research. Yes research is important to the advancment of medicine. Not why is that imprortant in the DNP? I thought the purpose of the DNP was to provide clinictionans. There are plenty of Phd types out there for the research part. I personally don't have the time to do much research. I'd like to but it's not going to happen.

2. Just a normal part of progresion. The focuse today is on evidence based practice. Were in all these statements is the evidence. The only evidence that I've beena ble to find is negative stuff from the DPharm people.

3. Division. Instead of working on a united front, the might actually get things done, nursing is now splitting it's ranks even farther.

4. Classroom vs clinical. The focus on the DNP is supposed to be clinical, In the program I was looking at, non of them significantly increased teh amount of clinical neede. And no I'm not a believer of the RN being part of clinical, I had a classmate who was a Kaiser Telphone Triage Nurse and hand't touched a patient in 10 years.

5. Not getting a MSN. I know for a fact that this can happen. When I went for my masters I was in an RN-MSN program. I never got an BSN. At the time because of the way the rules were written I couldn't get a commision in the USAF because I didn't have a BSM. It didn't matter that I had a BA and a MSN. So I can see this happening.

I have to agree with care0. I'ts an experiment, will we as a proffesion be honest enough to evaluate the experiment thogh and make the appropriate changes or even scrap the program.

I"ll call myself Doctor in the academic environment, but never in the clinical environment.

Dave, Thanks again for being a voice of reason, I only wish I could verbalize my thoughts as well as you do. I'd do the PA thing myself, but my wife is a PA and the faculty of the PA program I'd want to go to, so that aint' going to happen.

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I would be okay with a few extra classes, but not 2 extra years, and not if is detrimental to the PhD in nursing. I just do not feel it should be a must if masters trained NPs are just as good. It should be an option,not a requirement, in my opinion. Thanks for all the input!

J

The DNP would not be two extra years in addition to a master's. A master's would not be required. From my understanding, the DNP would take about three years after completing a BSN. If you already have a MSN, it would be an extra year of coursework. Also, it would not be detrimental to the PhD. Again, the PhD is academically and research based. A PhD is recognized and respected across all disciplines and it is not going away anytime soon.

I also believe that MSN-prepared nurses are well trained with the current model. However, I see it as more about getting the recognition for the coursework that we do. My MSN program is over 60 credit hours, which is not the norm for the majority of master's programs in other disciplines. Many other master's are only 30-40 credit hours. There are some that are comparative to nursing, but it is not the norm.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.
The DNP would not be two extra years in addition to a master's. A master's would not be required. From my understanding, the DNP would take about three years after completing a BSN. If you already have a MSN, it would be an extra year of coursework. Also, it would not be detrimental to the PhD. Again, the PhD is academically and research based. A PhD is recognized and respected across all disciplines and it is not going away anytime soon.

I also believe that MSN-prepared nurses are well trained with the current model. However, I see it as more about getting the recognition for the coursework that we do. My MSN program is over 60 credit hours, which is not the norm for the majority of master's programs in other disciplines. Many other master's are only 30-40 credit hours. There are some that are comparative to nursing, but it is not the norm.

Well depending on the program you may need a masters. I've found at least two programs that requore you to have an MSN before getting into the DNP program. I think it's a bit to early in the program to make blanket statements. Lets see in a few years what the reality of the DNP program turns into.

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well depending on the program you may need a masters. i've found at least two programs that requore you to have an msn before getting into the dnp program. i think it's a bit to early in the program to make blanket statements. lets see in a few years what the reality of the dnp program turns into.

the intent as stated by nonpf is the dnp be the entry into advanced practice by 2015. i don't know the exact number of programs, but the vast majority of dnp programs do not require a ms to enter. there are dnp completion programs which would require a ms, i don't feel these are applicable to the current discussion of needing a doctoral degree to be a np. nonpf and others have been clear that those in practice will be grandfathered in 2015.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.
the intent as stated by nonpf is the dnp be the entry into advanced practice by 2015. i don't know the exact number of programs, but the vast majority of dnp programs do not require a ms to enter. there are dnp completion programs which would require a ms, i don't feel these are applicable to the current discussion of needing a doctoral degree to be a np. nonpf and others have been clear that those in practice will be grandfathered in 2015.

i think it needs to be part of the discusion. i'm qustioning why it's a academic and faulty group that is driving this. a change like this should be driven from the workers or the proffesion itself. there are always arguments here about conflict of interest with insurance groupls and pharmacutical companies. the cycnic in me ( and i fully admit this) questions the true motivation.

i know i"ve been a big advacate of evidence based practice and comments, but i'm going to be a hypocrite and use anecdotal infomation here. my wife's office is right across the hallway from a pharmd program, i've worked with doctorate trained pt's, and even an cfo who got a phd in health care economics. all i've heard from them was that the doctorate made no difference in how they work or who they are percieved by other people. in the case of the pt, it actually kept her from getting a coupple jobs. she was told that they didn't need a another dr, they needed a physical thereapist. there is even a study out there, thet showed disatisfaction in pharmds. (sile wl, randolph ds. a clinical look at clinical doctorates. chronical rev 2006;52;b12.). again anecdotaly, one of the best crna's i know doesn't have a degree at all. well he may now i'ts been long enough. he was a diploma nurse and graduated from a certificate crna program. the mda's all look up to him, and ask him his opinion of things. it had nothing to do with the letters after his name, it all had to do with the clinical competence that he had shown over the years and the respect he had earned.

the mroe i read comments and responses here, the more i feel that it's an ego thing and not a true advancement of the proffesion motivating this. that's fine, ego can be a good thing. but be honest about it. as i look at this issue in trying to plan for my future, i get the impression, that again nursing isn't just missing the target, they are using hte wrong target. we're focusing on a set of letters after our name and not on identifying the true issue that needs to be fixed. this is the same problem when looking at all levels of nursing education. in another post an auther claimed that a certain study proved that bsn's were safer, so bsn were the only way we should be heading. ok but now lets really work to fix a problem and identify exacly what it is about the bsn program that makes a difference and share that knowledge with all the non bsn nurses out thre. show the world and the medical community that we can in fact help save patients with the science of nursing. what is lacking in an msn level np program that needs to be changes. more clinical, more whatever, i don't know and i don't think anyone else does either. it's time we found out, and address thos issues.

my personal choice is prob going to complete a dual msn and then a phd. if i choose to work clinicaly, i"m confident that i won't even have to worry about being grandfathered in, i and most of the current crop of np's who are over the age of 40 will never see the need to even worry about the need to be grandfathered.

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Specializes in Critical Care, Emergency, Education, Informatics.

Forgot to post the link

http://chronicle.com/free/v52/i46/46b01201.htm

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Specializes in ED, Cardiac-step down, tele, med surg.
I think it needs to be part of the discusion. I'm qustioning why it's a academic and faulty group that is driving this. A change like this should be driven from the workers or the proffesion itself. There are always arguments here about conflict of interest with insurance groupls and pharmacutical companies. The cycnic in me ( and I fully admit this) questions the true motivation.

I know I"ve been a big advacate of evidence based practice and comments, but I'm going to be a hypocrite and use anecdotal infomation here. My wife's office is right across the hallway from a PharmD program, I've worked with Doctorate trained PT's, and even an CFO who got a PHD in health care economics. All I've heard from them was that the DOctorate made no difference in how they work or who they are percieved by other people. In the case of the PT, it actually kept her from getting a coupple jobs. She was told that they didn't need a another Dr, they needed a Physical THereapist. There is even a study out there, thet showed disatisfaction in PharmDs. (Sile WL, Randolph DS. A CLinical Look At Clinical Doctorates. Chronical Rev 2006;52;B12.). Again anecdotaly, one of the best CRNA's I know doesn't have a degree at all. Well he may now i'ts been long enough. He was a diploma nurse and graduated from a certificate CRNA program. THe MDA's all look up to him, and ask him his opinion of things. It had nothing to do with the letters after his name, it all had to do with the clinical competence that he had shown over the years and the respect he had earned.

The mroe I read comments and responses here, the more I feel that it's an ego thing and not a true advancement of the proffesion motivating this. That's fine, ego can be a good thing. But be honest about it. As I look at this issue in trying to plan for my future, I get the impression, that again nursing isn't just missing the target, they are using hte wrong target. We're focusing on a set of letters after our name and not on identifying the true issue that needs to be fixed. This is the same problem when looking at all levels of nursing education. In another post an auther claimed that a certain study proved that BSN's were safer, so BSN were the only way we should be heading. Ok but now lets really work to fix a problem and identify exacly what it is about the BSN program that makes a difference and share that knowledge with all the non BSN nurses out thre. Show the world and the medical community that we can in fact help save patients with the science of nursing. What is lacking in an MSN level NP program that needs to be changes. More clinical, more whatever, I don't know and I don't think anyone else does either. It's time we found out, and address thos issues.

My personal choice is prob going to complete a dual MSN and then a PhD. If I choose to work clinicaly, I"m confident that I won't even have to worry about being grandfathered in, I and most of the current crop of NP's who are over the age of 40 will never see the need to even worry about the need to be grandfathered.

There are even persons in academia that oppose the DNP program which I posted in a previous link. I agree that there needs to be more consensus w/in the profession and academia. And specificity around what needs to be improved should be included. Thanks,

J

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Hey, I'm in agreement with you. I have just started my MSN/FNP and am already feeling the pressure to be concerned about a DNP from the school. I think that the school systems are using this as a total ploy to make more cash, and using "safety" as an excuse to do it. If I knew I would have to get a doctorate's degree, I probably would have gone to med school to begin with! I mean, at least the pay is better, right? I agree with your statement regarding clinical competency vs. letters behind the name. I know ADN's that I would trust more any day than some BSN's, MSN's, OR MD's! It comes down to how good one is at doing their job, and doing it right. Maybe this should be a focus in schools vs all the bull crap classes they've used as fillers in the BSN and MSN programs. Ooh, I must be stressed. Thanks for your post :)

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there are even persons in academia that oppose the dnp program which i posted in a previous link. i agree that there needs to be more consensus w/in the profession and academia. and specificity around what needs to be improved should be included. thanks,

j

the majority of those in academia who oppose the dnp are in schools who can't offer a doctorate. there is a great deal of consensus within the profession and academia, i don't recall a plan implemented as quickly in the past. programs offering the dnp completion degree are exploding. the professionals are seeking the dnp although the degree is not required for their current role. academia is responding to the need of the profession by developing and offering these dnp completion programs.

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