Doctor of Nursing Science - On-line

zenman · Mar 2, 2005

I'm a little leery of this place after a quick glance of their website. FYI, the University of Hawaii has just started an on-line Ph.D. program in nursing.

loisane · Mar 2, 2005

Tim, I hear you say you are going into this with your eyes open. But it is very hard for me to accept the idea of doing all the work required for a research doctorate, and getting what seems to be a less than optimal degree, due to the accreditation issues. I doubt that would be an acceptable option to me.

You sound like you are still researching your options. I found an attractive program at Duquene University in Pittsburgh. PhD in nursing, everything done in your home community or online, except for one week in summer every year until you complete. This was a close runner up to the program I eventually chose.

I looked at Virginia Commonwealth too. Their PhD is in allied health, and I wanted a nursing degree. I have heard they are developing a clinical doctorate also.

Good luck with your decision. Kudos to you for pursuing a doctorate! Not only is it a personal achievement, every CRNA who does this benefits our entire profession, as well.

loisane crna

James Huffman · Mar 2, 2005

I would be very wary of this school. A less than desirable degree can bite you when you least expect it.

At the very least, I would insist on physically visiting the school's headquarters. Meaning, go to the actual location, so that you can evaluate the place first hand. No legitimate school would object in the slightest; a less than legitimate school usually WILL object.

Here are 2 pieces I found pertaining to Breyer State.

Jim Huffman, RN

From Oregon's Office of Degree Authorization:

"ODA has no evidence that this is a legitimate provider of postsecondary education meeting Oregon standards. Not a state school. Loophole in Idaho law allows unaccredited degree suppliers to operate there as long as degrees are not supplied to Idaho residents. Its degrees should be considered not equivalent to those at accredited schools."

From the Seattle Times:

Spokane a 'diploma mill' hot spot; practice under scrutiny

By The Associated Press

0

SPOKANE-For its physical address, online high school Liberty Prep lists a pinkish house that recently had an overflowing garbage can and a broken-down speedboat in its front yard.

The school's Web site is almost identical to that of Branford Academy, another online school in Spokane.

Both offer high-school degrees for $286, two-year community-college degrees for $661, and links to cyberspace "universities" that sell bachelor's, master's or doctorate degrees.

"Spokane is one of two hot spots in the country right now for this kind of activity," said John Bear, an author from El Cerrito, Calif. The other is Rochester, N.Y., he told The Spokesman-Review newspaper. Like most states, Washington has no laws prohibiting such schools. Federal wire and mail-fraud laws could apply, but the schools haven't been high priority for law enforcement in the post-Sept. 11 world.

Using or selling bogus high-school or college degrees is illegal in just four states: Oregon, North Dakota, New Jersey and Illinois.

With increased computer usage, online high schools and universities are popping up everywhere, using spam to attract potential grads, said Alan Contreras, who works for Oregon's Office of Degree Authorization.

Some are legitimate, said Bear, a court-qualified expert on diploma mills. Many are not.

Graduates of these so-called diploma mills are beginning to come under increased scrutiny.

In the past two months, an undersecretary of defense and a ranking official at the Department of Homeland Security have come under fire for degrees from questionable universities.

The General Accounting Office, the investigative arm of Congress, is looking into the extent of the problem among federal employees. But that likely won't rein in the trend, experts say.

Internet operations use mailing addresses in places such as Liberia, Dominican Republic, Romania or, sometimes, a post-office box in Washington, D.C.

The two Spokane online schools offer applicants a 100-question multiple-choice test, which is translated into a grade-point average. The tests are linked to either St. Regis or Robertstown universities.

"Free Evaluation! No Risk! Guaranteed Pass!" their Web sites say.

Kenneth Pearson of Spokane, listed as the "registrant" for Liberty Prep, did not return repeated telephone calls seeking comment. A "registrant" is the person who registered the Web site's domain name. Pearson registered libertyprep.org on Aug. 25, public records show.

Dixie Randock, a former Spokane real-estate agent, was listed as the registrant for Branford Academy and a related school, James Monroe University, until last week. After calls from a Spokesman-Review reporter asking about her ties to Branford Academy, the registrant listing was changed to Mike Dunbar of Monrovia, Liberia.

James Monroe University appears to be the "conjoined twin" of a similar operation, Breyer State, that uses a post-office box in Kamiah, Idaho, according to the state of Oregon's Web site on unaccredited schools.

"Diploma mills are substandard or fraudulent colleges that offer potential students degrees with little or no serious work," the Oregon site says.

Randock, once listed as the Branford registrant, agreed to answer questions via e-mail.

"I do not own or operate Branford Academy," Randock said. Asked why her name and the address of her family's mobile-home business were listed as official contacts, she said: "I believe that information is pretty old."

Asked why Branford's 100-question test was linked to St. Regis University, she said: "You will have to ask them. As far as we know they are accredited by their country."

The contact phone number for the Branford site is the same as that used by the "A-Plus Institute," an online real-estate school in the Spokane suburb of Mead operated by Randock. Her husband, Steve Randock, was listed as the registrant for "Advanced Education Institute Trust," linked on the Internet to Robertstown University.

In Washington state, such operations may violate "unfair and deceptive business practices" provisions of the state's Consumer Protection Act, said Assistant Attorney General Steve Lorificen.

"There is a red flag there," said Lorificen, assigned to the attorney general's consumer-protection office in Seattle.

But he said many people who purchase bogus degrees know what they're doing and have not been deceived. Prospective employers who see the degrees listed on job applications may not realize they're bogus, however.

Mike Ball, associate director of Washington's Higher Education Coordinating Board, said loopholes in state laws allow diploma mills to operate here.

A school must have an actual building in the state before the HEC Board has jurisdiction, he said.

State laws, written before the rapid advance of the Internet, don't consider whether an online school's registrant lives in Washington.

The FBI hasn't gone after a high-profile diploma-mill case since the 1980s when "DipScam," the code name for Diploma Scam, produced successful prosecutions for wire, mail and tax fraud.

The Federal Trade Commission may get involved when diploma-mill degrees are used fraudulently.

sunnyjohn · Mar 2, 2005

http://www.breyerstate.com/accreditation.htm

from the website:

"Accreditation Information

Breyer State University is not accredited by an accreditation agency approved by the U.S. Department of Education"

Agape

jwk · Mar 2, 2005

With all this talk about entry level doctoral degrees for advanced nursing practice I began a search to find out what was out there. I found a program on-line that offered all I was looking for. The program is a Doctor of Nursing Science (DNS) through Breyer State University (BSU). It is a private, non-regionally accredited program. The university is accredited through several other agencies.
Tim

No regional accreditation = diploma mill and buying the title in many cases. A bunch of teachers in Georgia got their "advanced" teaching degrees that way. They're all jobless now.

James Huffman · Mar 2, 2005

Lack of regional accreditation doesn't always mean diploma mill. And sometimes even schools with regional accreditation are -- for all intents and purposes -- diploma mills, meaning they will provide the degree in question if the "student" is willing to pony up the money. But since most schools look on regional accreditation as a hoop they need to jump through, the lack of it should be a flag to investigate a little further.

There are huge amounts of time, effort and money spent on degrees every year. To me, the important thing is to ask whether the program in question is really needed for where the student is going in life. If not, why bother with it? That's true for any program, legitimate or not.

Jim Huffman, RN

smiling_ru · Mar 2, 2005

loisane,

Which school did you ultimately choose? I have looked at Case Western, Rush, VCU. I applied to UT Memphis, but the switch from DNSc to DNP concerns me. I am afraid that the DNP may limit my future choices as opposed to the DNSc, what do you think?

Please tell me of any programs that you have seen with an anesthesia focus and limited on campus time.

Thank you

tkcgjones · Mar 3, 2005

Jim,

Thanks for your reply. Harvard University was not regionally accredited until years ago. Not that I would compare the two. The other thought is the program listed at BSU is very well put together. It is not a dimploma mill, but it will not meet the needs of everyone.

Tim

loisane · Mar 3, 2005

loisane,
Which school did you ultimately choose? I have looked at Case Western, Rush, VCU. I applied to UT Memphis, but the switch from DNSc to DNP concerns me. I am afraid that the DNP may limit my future choices as opposed to the DNSc, what do you think?
Please tell me of any programs that you have seen with an anesthesia focus and limited on campus time.
Thank you

Hmmm-I hope you won't think I am too evasive if I limit my answer to saying, yes I chose one of the programs you list.

The DNP is a clinical doctorate, the type all the discussion is about regarding possible requirement for entry level programs. DNSc is a research doctorate, more similar to a PhD. Depends on your goals, you need to decide on the right fit for you. If you want unlimited potential in academia, a research doctorate will get you further. But clinical doctorates are well suited for APNs as well.

I agree that the available doctorate programs with a specific focus on anesthesia are limited. At least, that I was able to find. And I was only interested in limited on campus time, just like you. Maybe for those that have more flexibility, there are more choices. We just have so few CRNA doctorates. Hopefully as the numbers build, more specific programs will evolve, as the faculty support for them becomes available.

I guess you have to list all the characteristics of your ideal program, prioritize the list, and decide what you are willing to compromise on. It may sound strange, but I never considered a specific anesthesia focus as one of my primary factors. For others, it might be more important.

Good luck in your search. It is important for us to develop doctorate CRNAs, and I appreciate every one of my colleagues who is willing to step up to the next level.

loisane crna

sunnyjohn · Mar 3, 2005

"Harvard University was not regionally accredited until years ago."

Harvard received regional in 1929, one of the first universities in the country to do so.

No, regional accreditation is not the hallmark of a good education, but it makes you feel better when you spend all that money! I have taken classes at schools that are not accredited and they were excellent.

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70375

Good luck with your program.

Agape

James Huffman · Mar 3, 2005

I did a little more poking around the Breyer State website.

It keeps getting more and more interesting.

The first nurse listed on their faculty page has a Ph.D. and MS in counseling psychology from Greenwich University, located on Norfolk Island, Australia.

About Greenwich, the Australian Department of Education says:

"On the one occasion when Greenwich's academic and financial standing was subject to independent assessment by the Commonwealth, an expert review committee of five persons found that "the standard of its courses, quality assurance mechanisms and academic leadership fail to meet the standards expected of Australian universities."

No independent evidence has since been provided to the Australian Government that Greenwich University degrees meet the academic standards of Australian universities. It is open to Greenwich to apply for accreditation in Australia and to demonstrate that it does meet the standards required of an Australian university. It has not done so to date."

and ...

"To our knowledge, Greenwich University has never been accredited by any recognised government accreditation authority to deliver higher education awards. It authorises itself to award degrees in its company objects."

Likewise, this nurse is ordained by the American Fellowship Church. Their website offers:

"You may become ordained right now by ordering a License and ID Card. To become ordained legally, click here."

This place (although I suspect it's not a "place" but rather a website only) doesn't pass the smell test.

If anyone wants to obtain a degree from Breyer State, that's fine, but it's probably not going to be worth a lot. I don't know about everyone else, but $3,200 is a lot to pay for a piece of paper.

Jim Huffman, RN