How do you really feel about AA and would you go that route now if you could do over?

Specialties CRNA

Published

Just curious, I see all this information about AA's and now wonder how everyone in the field honestly feels about them.

Also would this be the route you would have taken had the choice been available to you at the time you went to school?

I am so curious about this route to education and not convinced but I am definately watching, as it may be a choice in my future.

CRNA is still the route I want to take- but at the same time I will be learning all I can about this specialty.

Thanks everyone!!

JWK- Educational standards and the NA program requirements are easily purchased if you are really truly interested.

http://www.aana.com/resources.aspx?ucNavMenu_TSMenuTargetID=57&ucNavMenu_TSMenuTargetType=4&ucNavMenu_TSMenuID=6&id=1424

I am disappointed that you choose to argue and split hairs rather than educate which if I understand correctly you could provide a wealth of information to someone looking into both programs. I did not start this thread to cause an argument, but to seek knowlege and information to help me make an informed decision.

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was just at the AA website and compared ....... it seems you can not find ANYTHING on that site without being a member, much like the ASA. However on the AANA website, I was able to freely move through several documents concerning accreditation and regional experience......

Your response?

The AAAA does not provide accreditation to AA programs.

http://www.caahep.org/documents/ForProgramDirectors/AA_Standards.pdf

By the way - it's free of charge and available online to the general public.

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Dude your crazy I just google searched the standards got about a zillion hits and perused the AANA website not logged in and they are as plain as day.....

Don't hate....appreciate!

I just did a google search as well - lots of references to the standards but......no standards. I've been all over the public side of AANA.com and did not find the standards that specify that nurse anesthesia students will be taught regionals and must do X number of spinals and Y number of epidurals. How 'bout providing the link on either aana.com or some other website? I'm sure not going to pay to read it.
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you can email this addy for the packet [email protected]

and the information you are looking for that you claim is hidden is here:

http://aana.com/resources.aspx?ucnavmenu_tsmenutargetid=51&ucnavmenu_tsmenutargettype=4&ucnavmenu_tsmenuid=6&id=772

here is an excerpt:

the supervised clinical residency of nurse anesthesia education provides students the opportunity to incorporate didactic anesthesia education into the clinical setting. nurse anesthetists are prepared to administer all types of anesthesia, including general, regional, selected local and conscious sedation, to patients of all ages for all types of surgeries. they are taught to use all currently available anesthesia drugs, to manage fluid and blood replacement therapy, and to interpret data from sophisticated monitoring devices. other clinical responsibilities include the insertion of invasive catheters, the recognition and correction of complications that occur during the course of an anesthetic, the provision of airway and ventilatory support during resuscitation, and pain management. to meet coa standards and be eligible to take the council on certification of nurse anesthetists (ccna) certification exam, a student must have performed a minimum of 450 anesthetics, which must include specialties such as pediatric, obstetric, cardiothoracic, and neurosurgical anesthesia. this anesthesia experience includes the care of not only healthy but also critically ill patients of all ages for elective and emergency procedures. in most programs, this minimum is surpassed early in their clinical practicum and the average number of anesthetics performed upon graduation is 773. the results of a 1998 survey of program directors show that nurse anesthesia programs provide an average of 1595 hours of clinical experience for each student.

http://aana.com/resources.aspx?ucnavmenu_tsmenutargetid=51&ucnavmenu_tsmenutargettype=4&ucnavmenu_tsmenuid=6&id=657

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The AAAA does not provide accreditation to AA programs.

http://www.caahep.org/documents/ForProgramDirectors/AA_Standards.pdf

By the way - it's free of charge and available online to the general public.

Um.... The document that you have linked to does not say how many hours and procedures...... Do you have a link to this for the AA program?

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Um.... The document that you have linked to does not say how many hours and procedures...... Do you have a link to this for the AA program?

You are correct that document is for the standards that a program must have to be CAAHEP accredited program. They mostly deal with institutional controls and resources. The standards either come from ARC-AA or Association for Anesthesiologist Assistant Education neither of which have working web sites.

David Carpenter, PA-C

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Specializes in CRNA, ICU,ER,Cathlab, PACU.
you can email this addy for the packet [email protected]

and the information you are looking for that you claim is hidden is here:

http://aana.com/resources.aspx?ucnavmenu_tsmenutargetid=51&ucnavmenu_tsmenutargettype=4&ucnavmenu_tsmenuid=6&id=772

here is an excerpt:

the supervised clinical residency of nurse anesthesia education provides students the opportunity to incorporate didactic anesthesia education into the clinical setting. nurse anesthetists are prepared to administer all types of anesthesia, including general, regional, selected local and conscious sedation, to patients of all ages for all types of surgeries. they are taught to use all currently available anesthesia drugs, to manage fluid and blood replacement therapy, and to interpret data from sophisticated monitoring devices. other clinical responsibilities include the insertion of invasive catheters, the recognition and correction of complications that occur during the course of an anesthetic, the provision of airway and ventilatory support during resuscitation, and pain management. to meet coa standards and be eligible to take the council on certification of nurse anesthetists (ccna) certification exam, a student must have performed a minimum of 450 anesthetics, which must include specialties such as pediatric, obstetric, cardiothoracic, and neurosurgical anesthesia. this anesthesia experience includes the care of not only healthy but also critically ill patients of all ages for elective and emergency procedures. in most programs, this minimum is surpassed early in their clinical practicum and the average number of anesthetics performed upon graduation is 773. the results of a 1998 survey of program directors show that nurse anesthesia programs provide an average of 1595 hours of clinical experience for each student.

http://aana.com/resources.aspx?ucnavmenu_tsmenutargetid=51&ucnavmenu_tsmenutargettype=4&ucnavmenu_tsmenuid=6&id=657

nice job kukukajoo...that article is a little dated though...the coa has since increased the req to 550...very easy to meet.

regardless of the numbers, clinical instructors who train nurse anesthetists wont allow you to graduate and submit your casecounts to coa if you don't meet the standards, so talking about the numbers required in terms of quality of care is a non-issue.

about the aa turned crna, i have heard the same about a crna turned anesthesiologist. i dont trust either of their arguements. they both are trying to justify the additional time and money spent re-educating theirselves. can you imagine putting yourself through either medical school or crna school only to come out and say it was for nothing? i commend their efforts for pursuing additional education, but they are outliers and should not be listened to as expert analysts of anesthesia education.

and to the op....why would you short yourself the opportunity to practice in all 50 states? or look at it from this perspective, how many jobs are out there for crnas, now how many for aas? it is an investment of time and money, don't limit yourself to a handful of states under the idea that the rest of the country will be taken by the aa storm in the next decade.

good luck

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Um.... The document that you have linked to does not say how many hours and procedures...... Do you have a link to this for the AA program?

None of the links y'all have provided specify that regional anesthesia training is required or that a specific number of regionals are required for graduation. I'm not saying that's not the requirement, just that I can't find it anywhere. And actually, I emailed the AANA / COA more than a year ago and asked for that specific information. What a surprise - I got no response.

There is not a specific requirement for the AA programs as far as number of cases or hours of clinical time. All the programs spend the majority of their first year in the various classes, with gradually increasing clinical hours each trimester. The senior year (12-15 months) is full time in the OR (40 hours per week or more depending on the clinical site), with additional time on top of that attending seminars and conferences. Senior students rotate through all the surgical sub-specialty areas. Here's an excerpt from Nova:

The students will get an extensive clinical training experience that will consist of a minimum of 2500 clinical hours that encompass all aspects of anesthesia care for the surgical patient. Upon completion of the course of study, students will have earned a Master of Health Science degree from Nova Southeastern University.

And from Emory:

During the senior year (semesters 5,6,7), clinical rotations are full time and involve all specialty areas in anesthesia, including general surgery, pediatrics, obstetrics and gynecology, otolaryngology, orthopedics, neurosurgery, ophthalmology, genito-urinary surgery, vascular surgery, cardiac surgery, thoracic surgery, transplantation, and trauma. Clinical activity includes days, evenings, nights, weekends, and call - depending upon the rotation. More than 50 clinical rotation sites are available in 14 states and Washington, DC. Senior students attend weekly conferences at their clinical sites.

Students spend approximately 2500 hours in clinical rotations during the 24 months in the program

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You are correct that document is for the standards that a program must have to be CAAHEP accredited program. They mostly deal with institutional controls and resources. The standards either come from ARC-AA or Association for Anesthesiologist Assistant Education neither of which have working web sites.

David Carpenter, PA-C

The ARC-AA functions in the same manner as ARC-PA. The AAAE is not an active organization any longer.

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JWK- I will post the link AGAIN about regional. It does not give numbers, but then you are saying that they are not available for the AA course either. I originally started this thread to get information and instead you seem intent on splitting hairs rather than informing me. I find this unfortunate since others on this board told me you could be most helpful and you really have not been. Instead you have honestly turned me off to the prospect of AA school.

Below is the link to the Regional Admin page on the AANA website as well as the text. I am not sure what you are trying to get across.

http://aana.com/resources.aspx?ucNavMenu_TSMenuTargetID=51&ucNavMenu_TSMenuTargetType=4&ucNavMenu_TSMenuID=6&id=657

Administration of Regional Anesthesia by CRNAs

Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists (CRNAs) possess the knowledge and competence required to administer regional anesthesia. Through education and individual clinical experience, CRNAs attain the ability to initiate and manage all aspects of regional anesthesia techniques, including the management of associated complications. These techniques include, but are not limited to, the placement of spinal, epidural, peripheral nerve blocks, upper and lower extremity blocks, and the techniques associated with airway and pain management.

The appropriateness of CRNAs administering regional anesthesia is recognized in the Council on Accreditation Nurse Anesthesia Educational Programs guidelines and by reimbursement of CRNAs providing these services under policy of the Health Care Finance Administration. There are no federal or state prohibitions on the administration of regional anesthesia by nurse anesthetists. Studies show that CRNAs customarily perform these techniques with excellent outcomes.

Regional anesthesia is an accepted anesthesia technique. Restraints on the performance of this technique merely because the administrator is a nurse anesthetist are artificial and may unnecessarily affect patient safety and outcomes. Adopted by the Council on Nurse Anesthesia Practice

May 1978

Adopted by AANA Board of Directors

February 1989

Revised by the AANA Board of Directors

August 2000

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ZRMORGAN- I am the OP!! :) Seems as if I have had to do my own research as well as inform others of my findings when they state the information I found was not available. The above information comes right from AANA website.

A quick look shows that New Britain School of NA requires 29 months, 2560 clinical hours, and 750 cases. UNE is 27 months, 550 cases and lists all the regionals taught. I am certain there are variances with all the schools, and most surpassing the required education for AANA standards, the same as with RN programs. Standards have to be met, and can be exceeded. Some CRNA programs are 32 months.

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JWK- I will post the link AGAIN about regional. It does not give numbers, but then you are saying that they are not available for the AA course either. I originally started this thread to get information and instead you seem intent on splitting hairs rather than informing me. I find this unfortunate since others on this board told me you could be most helpful and you really have not been. Instead you have honestly turned me off to the prospect of AA school.

Below is the link to the Regional Admin page on the AANA website as well as the text. I am not sure what you are trying to get across.

You think it's splitting hairs - I simply want facts.

The link you post doesn't specify the info I'm talking about. It USED TO BE available in the open area of the AANA website, and in the past the standards did NOT specify that regional anesthesia training was required, which also means there was no requirement to complete a specific number of regional anesthetic procedures. According to several of the CRNA's in this thread, it IS a requirement now. I simply asked for a link to that requirement, which has yet to be provided. That information is now concealed behind the password protected area of AANA.com - I don't know why. No one has told me yet.

Likewise, I'm waiting for the answers to the questions I posed to hearticu, that is, the name of the person who went from AA to CRNA (PM is fine if he/she doesn't want to post it publicly) as well as his/her assertion that this person found the CRNA program to be so much more broader and in depth than the AA program. Again - no answer to either question.

You want to know about AA's? Fine - here's the gist of it:

AA's have been around since 1971. Not exactly a new profession, but yes, younger than CRNA's. When AA's have been around 200 years, CRNA's will still have a 70 year edge on us.

Students come from a variety of backgrounds - clinical experience is preferred but not a requirement. Regardless, all must have satisfied appropriate pre-medical classes in college, including chemistry, organic, physics, calculus, etc., and take either the GRE or MCAT depending on the program. We often hear on this board that we get forestry and ElEd majors. I haven't seen any yet, but it's possible IF they have the pre-requisites, which most forestry and ElEd majors do not.

The programs are accredited by CAAHEP and the ARC-AA, fully independent organizations that are not under the corporate umbrella of any AA program or the AAAA. Certification is granted by the NCCAA, another independent organization after successful completion of a certification exam near the end of the program that is given by the National Board of Medical Examiners, the same organization that gives certification exams to physicians. Although the exam is given prior to graduation, certification is dependent on successful completion of the program. Some on this board like to make a point that the exam can be taken before the program is completed - that's true, but a person can pass the exam and still not attain certification if they don't successfully obtain their degree. Depending on the ending date of the program the exam may be taken a few weeks or a couple of months prior to finishing a degree program.

AA's are practicing in 16 states and DC, some by licensure, and some by physician's delegatory authority granted by state law. The bulk practice in Ohio and Georgia, but are scattered in other states.

AA's work as part of the anesthesia care team (ACT) with anesthesiologists. We do not work independently of them. Depending on the statistics you look at, 60-80% of CRNA's also work in ACT practices every day. In those practices where AA's and CRNA's are both employed, they have the same scope of practice and the same pay. In those practices, you would not know which is which without looking at the name tag.

AA's seek to work in all states. We do not seek to limit the practice of CRNA's or take their positions away from them. We would like to practice our profession without interference from CRNA and without their attempts to limit our practice. It's ridiculous - it's a turf battle, and they don't want to share the $$$.

Feel free to PM me if you have further questions.

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