Hospital cancelled my contract!?! - page 6

Okay, so I took my first assignment at John Hopkins in Baltimore and I've been there for three weeks. Well, I travel with another nurse that was contracted with me for 13 weeks on another unit. Well,... Read More

  1. by   travelerrn
    Just out of curiosity, how long have you actually been a nurse?
    Where have you worked? What kind of nursing have you done? I know you are supposed to be an NP, but what REAL nursing have you done?
    Dont get me wrong, I work with NP's that I absolutely love, but you are putting down travel nurses (some of the best nurses around) yet you are NOT in REAL nursing now. You, on the contrary are management so are the cause of MANY nurses leaving nursing and/or becoming travelers.
    Are you at Baylor by any chance??
    Last edit by travelerrn on Feb 22, '08 : Reason: change a word
  2. by   candida
    "there is a lot of hostility in what is statistical fact. it is not my right to judge what the figures show."

    what happened karen? i have been waiting to be enlightened on your "statiscal facts" and yet you still have failed to prove your point. just name the journal or article you claim to recieve your fact based knowledge on and i will be happy to look it up.

    rdnrs:

    ~candida~
  3. by   Conqueror+
    People like Karen are akin to bean counters. They only look at bottom lines and when they cannot prove their "point" they simply give a flippant, unclear response and dissapear. I have worked as a traveler on and off for 14 years and it has made me the best nurse in my entire family (MOM Grandmom brother husband and 2 nieces) They couldn't touch me on a floor if they tried and my mom has been a nurse since 1969 and an RN since 1976. Furthermore i won't complete my RN until this coming winter and I have been the highest wage earner in my family for years. Go figure. Travelers rock and i can't wait for the added travel opportunities that my RN will afford me.
  4. by   candida
    thanks pageantnurse yep. it seem's she couldn't stand the heat so she got out of the kitchen! why she even responded to a travel nurse question or concern with no experience of ever being a traveler is beyond me. plus whom ever she works for does not hire travelers so how can she judge the compentency of one? it just irks me.


    ~candida~
  5. by   KatieBell
    Nursing is not about making travel a full time profession? This makes very little sense to me. Everywhere I travel to, I practice Nursing. not travelling. Sometimes its not fun at all, othertimes I have had great experiences, but I am always working as a nurse. Travel is not our profession, we are nurses, who happen to travel. Not sure why this bothers you so much?
    Last edit by KatieBell on Mar 2, '08 : Reason: correct my typos....
  6. by   KarenGeorgeBSRN
    Dear T.Ns,

    I have had plenty of experience, however, many here who have attacked statistics, and budgetary restraints just "think" from their perspective. By the way for those who want to know "why" I posted on this link it was because the topic was suggested to "another link" that I had posted on.

    The truth is Administrative nursing professions do know the horror stories; I have always had an "open door" policy, and made sure my staff (whoever they are) remain "honored and respected" and that includes those who worked as T.Ns who were peers or hired to fill a major glut, due to policy changes, and a "clean out" when big administration said "clear this mess up." Meaning across the board changes from the top and termination of many.

    I have had women (a few men) come in and tell me they were "alcoholic" and do T.N because they avoid responsibility, I have others who tell me "we deserve the money and benefits and screw Administration," and yet others who tell me "we are in danger coming in here right now don't you see?" so none of this is new to me, but what many do not see is it's about the "care" clients eventually receive. All of you (myself as well) are potential "clients."

    Cost-effective care has removed acuity and you will see this in the next few years. Large acute care hospitals will eventually become one small floor of 24 hour turn around, and sub-acute (LTC) will be the only insurability paid. LTC as it stands now has little acceptance for T.Ns but will pay higher in some areas then acute care for regular staff nurses for they see the future arriving.

    I would suggest for the many here who truly consider this their calling to shop around for there are agencies and companies willing to pay you "much more" then what the many posters have decried as "low pay, having to leave family, being away from home et al." because most of the T.Ns who speak honestly to me tell me "I do not want to stay at one place nor do I care about team spirit, but what I can make, and where I want to go."

    Times "they are a changing" and with that in mind prepare yourself for more than what looks like "less shifts," but perks being offered by the true corporate powers in retaining what they term "stable, responsible nurses" either in high retention bonuses plus relocation, to the educational benefits so many here want and would allow them to become Masters prepared and even a few N.P's.

    I have very limited time to post, and I just happened to link into this post topic; when I do post it is usually in areas (several) where there is a sincere need "to know" and to share with others of the same mindset as myself.

    This theory has nothing to do with me but the true outcome of what cost-effective care brings to the "medical industry." I would hope that those of you who really want the bucks find the agencies paying them, and for the others who truly complain about leaving family and being FORCED to travel that you find a staff position somewhere local where you can practice your profession nearby.

    Have a great day!

    Karen G.
  7. by   KatieBell
    Only going to reply to a bit of your Long post karen.

    I have been a traveler for a long time now, but am invited back to my "home" job at least 2-3 times a year because I am a good nurse and I was well liked. In fact, I also get called by a few assignments asking if I wouldn't want to come back.

    At at least 4 different facilities I have worked at, I have seen staff nurses arrested/fired on the job for narcotics diversion/or intoxicated on the job. I have never seen this happen with a traveler, even when there were more travelers than staff. Now, I am sure that it does, but, I would hardly say that it is really something that just travelers deal with. In fact, I think it may be less common in travelers, because each time I get a new license I need to prove I have never been cited by any Board of nursing for anything. People tend to cover for each other when they have worked with each other for a long time. No one Covers for me when I walk into a facility brand spanking new, and I usually must drug test for each new assignment....never had to do that every thirteen weeks as a staff nurse.
  8. by   CruisingCats
    Quote from KarenGeorgeBSRN
    Dear T.Ns,

    I have had plenty of experience, however, many here who have attacked statistics, and budgetary restraints just "think" from their perspective. By the way for those who want to know "why" I posted on this link it was because the topic was suggested to "another link" that I had posted on.

    The truth is Administrative nursing professions do know the horror stories; I have always had an "open door" policy, and made sure my staff (whoever they are) remain "honored and respected" and that includes those who worked as T.Ns who were peers or hired to fill a major glut, due to policy changes, and a "clean out" when big administration said "clear this mess up." Meaning across the board changes from the top and termination of many.

    I have had women (a few men) come in and tell me they were "alcoholic" and do T.N because they avoid responsibility, I have others who tell me "we deserve the money and benefits and screw Administration," and yet others who tell me "we are in danger coming in here right now don't you see?" so none of this is new to me, but what many do not see is it's about the "care" clients eventually receive. All of you (myself as well) are potential "clients."

    Cost-effective care has removed acuity and you will see this in the next few years. Large acute care hospitals will eventually become one small floor of 24 hour turn around, and sub-acute (LTC) will be the only insurability paid. LTC as it stands now has little acceptance for T.Ns but will pay higher in some areas then acute care for regular staff nurses for they see the future arriving.

    I would suggest for the many here who truly consider this their calling to shop around for there are agencies and companies willing to pay you "much more" then what the many posters have decried as "low pay, having to leave family, being away from home et al." because most of the T.Ns who speak honestly to me tell me "I do not want to stay at one place nor do I care about team spirit, but what I can make, and where I want to go."

    Times "they are a changing" and with that in mind prepare yourself for more than what looks like "less shifts," but perks being offered by the true corporate powers in retaining what they term "stable, responsible nurses" either in high retention bonuses plus relocation, to the educational benefits so many here want and would allow them to become Masters prepared and even a few N.P's.

    I have very limited time to post, and I just happened to link into this post topic; when I do post it is usually in areas (several) where there is a sincere need "to know" and to share with others of the same mindset as myself.

    This theory has nothing to do with me but the true outcome of what cost-effective care brings to the "medical industry." I would hope that those of you who really want the bucks find the agencies paying them, and for the others who truly complain about leaving family and being FORCED to travel that you find a staff position somewhere local where you can practice your profession nearby.

    Have a great day!

    Karen G.
    Hmmm...you've had "plenty of experience" going straight from school into administration? Hardly. While I did go into administration for a while, all told I have practiced nursing for 31 years. Beside nursing, where real nurses practice. As a result of my far superior experience to yours, I can tell you that you are so full of your own opinions, completely unrelated to facts, that it is quite appalling.

    First, we asked you over and over again for your "statistics". We have still not gotten you to provide those statistics you, alone, insist exists. Why? Because they are a figment of your imagination? You do not respond to our quote of the effectiveness of travel nurses on patient care. Why? Because the truth leaves you without response?

    So, you have an open door policy. And that means you know what goes on in the trenches of nursing? No. It means you haven't a clue to the pressures and stresses that real nurses face every day. You can hear what goes on every day, but just like Hilary Clinton can follow a nurse around for a day, that doesn't mean she (or you) can begin to understand what a real nurse faces daily.

    "Across the board changes from the top and termination of many"? Whoa! I don't think you have any idea how telling that statement is! Obviously, your permanent staff is not as stellar as you make out. Surely, if you "honored and respected" your staff, as you say, you would re-educate and train them, versus terminating them.

    Obviously, in your narrow-minded view of travel nurses, you do not realize that travel nurses are far LESS likely to abuse drugs or alcohol for the simple reason that we know we are constantly going to be drug tested. Drug testing is pretty much mandatory every three months, often again upon starting an assignment and simply whenever a hospital feels like doing it again. Most travel nurses wouldn't consider abusing drugs or alcohol for the simple reason that the risk of being caught is far too great. Of course, since travel nurses tend to be a happier lot, in my opinion, they don't have the need to abuse drugs or alcohol, as I'm sure many of your own staff probably do.

    Certainly, I'd like to address your next statements, but they are such a jumble of cross ideas and mass confusion that I have to wonder about your mental state? Are you so upset about this issue that you cannot think clearly? It is quite concerning that a hospital administrator can write in such an inarticulate manner.

    I do get a sense that you feel travel nurses are only in it for the money. Nothing could be further from the truth. By and large travel nurses travel for their profession for new experiences and to see new areas of the country. Yes, some do travel for more money. Some travelers travel despite making LESS money than they would at home. I would wager to say that virtually ALL travelers take with them to every single assignment the determination that they would practice the best nursing possible, learn from their assignment and impart knowledge to others.
    Last edit by CruisingCats on Mar 2, '08
  9. by   rncopper
    Karen,

    Let state some facts:

    You stated in another post you have a BS instead of a BSN. (no comment) You also stated you went straight into administration and you were "published" before you took the NCLEX. All of this is taken from posts you have made in other threads. Am I impressed? Does this make you a knowledgeable RN? Should I look up to you for information and guidance? A resounding NO!

    With those facts YOU yourself stated - you have no practical nursing experience!!! Therefore, your lubricous statements have no merit. You quote facts, though when asked numerous times to validate your statements with citations from published works, you give none. The rhetoric you pontificate is mired in lies, half-truths, and misperceptions - an administrator who has no real world experience.

    You have stated you don't have travelers at your facility BUT now you are stating they have come to you to "confess"??? Which is it Karen???

    Why are floors empty because facilities cannot staff them? Why are some facilities staffed with mainly travelers? Why do some facilites have more than a 60% turn-over rate? Why can I get a travel assignment in 3 hours if no one uses travelers or if travelers are so inferior to staff nurses? Why have I precepted perm employees while I was a traveler? Why are there over 300 travel nurse companies who place travelers every day?

    Your comments are magniloquent - with no basis in fact. If you truly are a nursing advocate, you might try and support all facets of nursing - which traveling is one.









    Quote from KarenGeorgeBSRN
    Dear T.Ns,

    I have had plenty of experience, however, many here who have attacked statistics, and budgetary restraints just "think" from their perspective. By the way for those who want to know "why" I posted on this link it was because the topic was suggested to "another link" that I had posted on.

    The truth is Administrative nursing professions do know the horror stories; I have always had an "open door" policy, and made sure my staff (whoever they are) remain "honored and respected" and that includes those who worked as T.Ns who were peers or hired to fill a major glut, due to policy changes, and a "clean out" when big administration said "clear this mess up." Meaning across the board changes from the top and termination of many.

    I have had women (a few men) come in and tell me they were "alcoholic" and do T.N because they avoid responsibility, I have others who tell me "we deserve the money and benefits and screw Administration," and yet others who tell me "we are in danger coming in here right now don't you see?" so none of this is new to me, but what many do not see is it's about the "care" clients eventually receive. All of you (myself as well) are potential "clients."

    Cost-effective care has removed acuity and you will see this in the next few years. Large acute care hospitals will eventually become one small floor of 24 hour turn around, and sub-acute (LTC) will be the only insurability paid. LTC as it stands now has little acceptance for T.Ns but will pay higher in some areas then acute care for regular staff nurses for they see the future arriving.

    I would suggest for the many here who truly consider this their calling to shop around for there are agencies and companies willing to pay you "much more" then what the many posters have decried as "low pay, having to leave family, being away from home et al." because most of the T.Ns who speak honestly to me tell me "I do not want to stay at one place nor do I care about team spirit, but what I can make, and where I want to go."

    Times "they are a changing" and with that in mind prepare yourself for more than what looks like "less shifts," but perks being offered by the true corporate powers in retaining what they term "stable, responsible nurses" either in high retention bonuses plus relocation, to the educational benefits so many here want and would allow them to become Masters prepared and even a few N.P's.

    I have very limited time to post, and I just happened to link into this post topic; when I do post it is usually in areas (several) where there is a sincere need "to know" and to share with others of the same mindset as myself.

    This theory has nothing to do with me but the true outcome of what cost-effective care brings to the "medical industry." I would hope that those of you who really want the bucks find the agencies paying them, and for the others who truly complain about leaving family and being FORCED to travel that you find a staff position somewhere local where you can practice your profession nearby.

    Have a great day!

    Karen G.
  10. by   KarenGeorgeBSRN
    Good morning Katie!

    This is not about drug diversion; I am sharing for the last time my experiences, and what the overall budgetary requirements for the entire economy demand (we are talking across this nation not just in nursing), and cost-effective care as a program has NOT reaped good rewards; there are too many nurses not trained properly for QA and UR assessments; we have as a profession been thrown into a period of time where the demand is astronomical, yet they "blame us" and yes they do ALL of us, for the need. In short take a nurse looking for a permanent placement; they post a resume, and are chased by every agency and facility in need.

    First, they are courted like a teenager. Then when a nurse is asked about starting salary or wage silence occurs. From promises to lies and back to half promises occurs. Yet our profession is asked to wear so many new hats, and let's face it "a fashion statement" grows old when we dedicate to the outcomes a client receives due to medical intervention, and prehaps "preventive care" in order that costs are contained.

    Second, a deal is made perhaps. Should a nurse not consider the options; many coming back into the field or new graduates see an opportunity (T.N.) to avoid the "slippery" positions out there. But until we all face squarely where the economy is heading, we cannot as a profession remain proud, and sound in any responsible position we take!

    Third, they take a job. A few of you have really portrayed horrible situations (and I do empathize strongly) where you did not feel comfortable on a unit; where it was more Peyton Place then a professional environment and the like. So you say "I do" and the minute the contract (and by no means do I mean a written just the thought if you will) is sealed, the "real marriage realities" become evident.

    Most of us who work Administration have seen the broader picture, and experienced the smaller picture too. When I look at some of the aspects of T.N. I think "what a lovely way to travel, experience different settings, and perhaps truly make a difference in the lives of many." I do not deny this can and does occur especially in seasoned travelers.

    I will point out to you one aspect to consider. Just imagine started a new job; a permanent position. Yes you are a nurse, you are bringing with you that hefty education, your strengths and weaknesses, and a wonderful life experience that allows you to be part of the greatest profession in the world. Think about the small things that you recall that first week or two on the job; finding important IV setups, the software system you chart within or old fashioned paper documentation; the list is pretty diverse and frightening even for a seasoned professional just because "he or she" is going into a new environment. Take it further; it would not matter how great you are in ICU, CCC, high acuity IF YOU CANNOT even decipher where the trash can is ok? The highest risk in going in and out "we" (I guess many of you see us as the bad guys in Administration but we are all nurses too working on salary I might add which does not allow OT and the like) is that orientation period where even the greatest nurse must find his or her way around!

    I know what comes next and you are correct~why not do better orientation for the T.N.? Again we are down to dollars and cents; most facilities feel they are paying out of the nose for T.N.'s and I might add check how much your agency is taking of your hourly rate. I mean why should the agency take 50% of what the facility is paying for your expert services? They are grouping assignments and perhaps doing some cursory background checks and reference materials but what are they doing for that period of 8 to 13 weeks to earn 50% of what the corporate complex is paying for your services? Not much!

    There is the problem, and yes it is in the early weeks of an assignement where the negative statistics arise. And yes staff nurses may be the problem. I will tell you on several occasions (since you seem relatively kind in your post and not attacking me or my position) where I have gotten orders for T.N.'s to clear out a facility and weed the chaff if you will from the grain. When I did, I PERSONALLY made myself present (24 hours a day if necessary) to go through this experience with my T.N. staff; I honestly prepared them for "what the purpose of this is" and it was a successful venture. However, for every good or great T.N. I have had being asked back is not the key; the true question becomes "why if you are asked can't you settle in and do this and also progress professionally?"

    With "change" being KEY in our medical industry economic forces today, it will take all of us as a professional whole to remain consistent, and reap the benefits we richly deserve. Yes I agree with you often a few rotten apples make the whole cart look spoiled but I do not see it this way. If the greater economy and corporate structure that pays "us" sees it this way, and if ACUTE care is suffering (and it is) then where it hits home will hit hard. It will remove the need for the higher paid positions and robotize our profession!! It is happening with the advent of newer positions such as "med tech" and that ya'll know is an entirely different topic and also one of controversy...

    I believe my very first response had to do with this overall picture, and I am very sorry if this huge financial or economic nightmare was not made more evident in my original post or reply. Meaning I love our profession; in fact I love change. No part of this for me is how much I make; it is a true statement of dedication to being a nurse in any role I play. No good Administrator holds the reigns; a good "boss" is willing to get down and dirty, to have an "open door" and to share their strengths and weaknesses. My concern is what is happening overall to make our profession suffer, and for the many good nurses who have posted here I see this affecting them in the long run too.

    I made one last long post so that it would explain which to me is common knowledge, but perhaps if it is not, it should be. Everyone working in the "field" has a right to know what is coming next. Many of you are going from place to place, likely exhausted from the travel and settling in. That does not mean (from me) a judgment of you, for what I address is what "they" (corporate interests) are doing and will go to with our without our enacting change.

    Anyhow ladies and gentlemen I will mosey off to my work, I do enjoy the board but have only been a support--not coming around "your specialty" to raise the roof but actually due to that referred link on another topic I had posted on.

    Have a wonderful day!

    Karen G.

    Quote from KatieBell
    Only going to reply to a bit of your Long post karen.

    I have been a traveler for a long time now, but am invited back to my "home" job at least 2-3 times a year because I am a good nurse and I was well liked. In fact, I also get called by a few assignments asking if I wouldn't want to come back.

    At at least 4 different facilities I have worked at, I have seen staff nurses arrested/fired on the job for narcotics diversion/or intoxicated on the job. I have never seen this happen with a traveler, even when there were more travelers than staff. Now, I am sure that it does, but, I would hardly say that it is really something that just travelers deal with. In fact, I think it may be less common in travelers, because each time I get a new license I need to prove I have never been cited by any Board of nursing for anything. People tend to cover for each other when they have worked with each other for a long time. No one Covers for me when I walk into a facility brand spanking new, and I usually must drug test for each new assignment....never had to do that every thirteen weeks as a staff nurse.
  11. by   KarenGeorgeBSRN
    If you take the time to read my initial response it is to the economic picture to our profession. Furthermore, I do not need to provide statistics that are on the net that each of you has the time to look up and read. I encourage this so that you learn.

    Of course I've worked in the trenches. However, I was given a huge amount of responsibility (Administration) from the beginning. I worked hospice and ICU from day 1 along with my other position. Not to mention several years while in school working psychiatric acute and neuro (two separate positions) where since I was a student I definitely got to do far more than most do in a day to day regular assignment. Is this post to address attack or reality?

    I am not the problem, nor is any nurse administrator the solution for the corporate powers who sign your paycheck are suffering huge hits due to insurers cutting back on days in acute, and over the past 10 years in particular it has been felt. It will affect those who have chosen this speciality for they do not like "what those seasoned T.N.s can bring to the table" they look at dollar signs.

    Have a great day and for those of you open enough to see the true picture, and dedicated to the profession join in the change that will affect us all as a profession; bring an objective gaze to what will occur.

    Good day!

    Karen G.


    P.S. I have been a nurse for 14 years and currently the big guns will not pay for T.N's and that is their stand not mine!
    Last edit by TheCommuter on Mar 2, '08 : Reason: Unnecessary input
  12. by   KarenGeorgeBSRN
    Dear C.C.,

    The answers are in my last post.

    Karen G.


    Quote from CruisingCats
    Hmmm...you've had "plenty of experience" going straight from school into administration? Hardly. While I did go into administration for a while, all told I have practiced nursing for 31 years. Beside nursing, where real nurses practice. As a result of my far superior experience to yours, I can tell you that you are so full of your own opinions, completely unrelated to facts, that it is quite appalling.

    First, we asked you over and over again for your "statistics". We have still not gotten you to provide those statistics you, alone, insist exists. Why? Because they are a figment of your imagination? You do not respond to our quote of the effectiveness of travel nurses on patient care. Why? Because the truth leaves you without response?

    So, you have an open door policy. And that means you know what goes on in the trenches of nursing? No. It means you haven't a clue to the pressures and stresses that real nurses face every day. You can hear what goes on every day, but just like Hilary Clinton can follow a nurse around for a day, that doesn't mean she (or you) can begin to understand what a real nurse faces daily.

    "Across the board changes from the top and termination of many"? Whoa! I don't think you have any idea how telling that statement is! Obviously, your permanent staff is not as stellar as you make out. Surely, if you "honored and respected" your staff, as you say, you would re-educate and train them, versus terminating them.

    Obviously, in your narrow-minded view of travel nurses, you do not realize that travel nurses are far LESS likely to abuse drugs or alcohol for the simple reason that we know we are constantly going to be drug tested. Drug testing is pretty much mandatory every three months, often again upon starting an assignment and simply whenever a hospital feels like doing it again. Most travel nurses wouldn't consider abusing drugs or alcohol for the simple reason that the risk of being caught is far too great. Of course, since travel nurses tend to be a happier lot, in my opinion, they don't have the need to abuse drugs or alcohol, as I'm sure many of your own staff probably do.

    Certainly, I'd like to address your next statements, but they are such a jumble of cross ideas and mass confusion that I have to wonder about your mental state? Are you so upset about this issue that you cannot think clearly? It is quite concerning that a hospital administrator can write in such an inarticulate manner.

    I do get a sense that you feel travel nurses are only in it for the money. Nothing could be further from the truth. By and large travel nurses travel for their profession for new experiences and to see new areas of the country. Yes, some do travel for more money. Some travelers travel despite making LESS money than they would at home. I would wager to say that virtually ALL travelers take with them to every single assignment the determination that they would practice the best nursing possible, learn from their assignment and impart knowledge to others.
    Last edit by TheCommuter on Mar 2, '08 : Reason: Unnecessary input
  13. by   KarenGeorgeBSRN
    To all,

    This is just the tip of the iceburg but it will affect the profession. DOJ suits are popping up all over there should not be a separate method of payment nor should corporate interests dictate controlling price

    Karen G.

    http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?s...ion=WebResults

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