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| No. 90 | 
Jun 22, 2009, 01:18 AM
 Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine.
"as societal circumstances have changed..." He also founded the University of Virginia..
My point is that he was an experimenter and believed in the ability of people to modify their government in response to the challenges posed by changes in society and the economy....
Jefferson is like Tom Paine thinkers from both the left and right look to him for quotations to support their point of view...
 | | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 91 |
Jun 22, 2009, 06:58 AM
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. Originally Posted by HM2Viking  "as societal circumstances have changed..." He also founded the University of Virginia..
My point is that he was an experimenter and believed in the ability of people to modify their government in response to the challenges posed by changes in society and the economy....
Jefferson is like Tom Paine thinkers from both the left and right look to him for quotations to support their point of view...
You keep dismissing the fact that he was a small gov't proponent. If you really think he would support this system, find me some proof in his writing.
I think you are trying to use Jefferson's founding of UVA to support the idea that Jefferson was a proponent of other gov't funded social programs. While it is (and was) a public university, UVA was founded to educate the populace to empower them over their gov't. Jefferson believed that without an educated populace the people could not effectively control their government. UVA was founded, in part to serve this goal. So UVA is probably not a great piece of evidence for your claim that he would support other gov't programs. Here's some proof from his writing: "I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." ~Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler
"Of all the views of this law [for public education], none is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people the safe as they are the ultimate guardians of their own liberty." ~Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia
Taken with his views on a small gov't, his fear of power corrupting, and the possibility that a national health system will empower the gov't to have control over a citizen's life and death, I don't think you can make a strong argument that Jefferson would be on board.
FYI, I graduated from Mr. Jefferson's University.
| | No. 95 |
Jun 23, 2009, 01:35 AM
Updated
Jun 23, 2009 at 01:42 AM by saarein
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. Originally Posted by GCTMT They're dead. John Adams and Thomas Jefferson died on July 4th 1825.....
I think the year was 1826, exactly 50 years after the Declaration was signed and the last Founding Father was not John Adams or Jefferson, it was Charles Carroll who died November 14th, 1832. His son donated the homestead of 140 acres and the house to John Hopkins University which became the main campus.
And secondly, the Constitution isn't the Holy Grail, it's not perfect and while I agree that it never explicitly says that health care is a right, I really don't care if it says that or not. I don't form my opinions on a document that was written over 220 years ago. I do think it is the Holy Grail along with the Declaration of Independence and the Magna Carta. I hold these documents in high esteem along with the brave men and women who risked life and limb to give you and me the freedoms we enjoy. I, too, am finished with this thread for other reasons not mentioned here, but very obvious.  | | No. 96 |
Jun 23, 2009, 10:45 AM
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine.
I stand corrected Saarein. It was 1826, not 1825, and Carroll was the last founder to die. Doesn't really change my argument though.
It's not a holy document. Of course, you are welcome to hold it in whatever esteem you wish, just like I am free to say that I think basing ones argument, on a document that was written over 200 years ago is intellectually lazy. The point is, it's a different world and I think we should quit "running home to mama", so to speak, everytime we are asked to define what we should or should not do in regards to health care.
People from all sides of the political spectrum have used the Constitution to defend their arguments, how about we think for ourselves and realize that just because something isn't explicitly written in the Constitution, doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
| | No. 97 |
Jun 23, 2009, 11:24 AM
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. Originally Posted by CRNA2007 Yawn. Show me all these kids dying because they were denied life saving procedures? What ones receiving their third heart lung transplant perhaps.
I know of two cases personally. They both did happen some time ago. First was in Portland, Oregon with a 25 month old with leukemia. The usual treatments weren't helping the toddler, doctors suggested bone marrow transplant. Insurance denied them, the hospital required the money up front. At the time it was $250K. The families held fundraisers, unfortunately they couldn't scrape up the money and the toddler died.
Northern Virginia. Early 90s. Same situation. A 4-year-old daugheter of our friend. Same deal. Insurance denied, family couldn't scrape up the money in time. Little girl died.
And surely you'd heard of other people who have lost their lives because insurance refuses to pay. It's been in the news. Or perhaps you choose not to believe them.
Sorry but people die because of lack of medical care, insured or not. Don't believe it that only countries with UHC have long waiting lists for elective procedures, either.
| | No. 98 |
Jun 23, 2009, 08:20 PM
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. Originally Posted by CRNA2007 Yawn. Show me all these kids dying because they were denied life saving procedures? What ones receiving their third heart lung transplant perhaps.
Sorry, just saw this. I didn't realize children dying for lack of insurance was boring.
Here's one I know personally: http://carlanddawn.blogspot.com/2009...eds-heart.html http://laithdougherty.info/
First heart transplant required. If you think it's ok for that baby to die because his insurance cap has been reached, then... okaaay. And so what if it WAS his third heart-lung transplant? Does that mean it's okay not to pay?  | | No. 99 |
Jun 23, 2009, 10:31 PM
Re: I want to know what nurses think about socialized medicine. Originally Posted by GCTMT
It's not a holy document. Of course, you are welcome to hold it in whatever esteem you wish, just like I am free to say that I think basing ones argument, on a document that was written over 200 years ago is intellectually lazy. The point is, it's a different world and I think we should quit "running home to mama", so to speak, everytime we are asked to define what we should or should not do in regards to health care.
People from all sides of the political spectrum have used the Constitution to defend their arguments, how about we think for ourselves and realize that just because something isn't explicitly written in the Constitution, doesn't mean we can't discuss it.
Intellectually lazy. ad hominem. Irony
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