Did You Know?
allnurses is the largest community for nurses on the web. We now have over 388,837 members! Join today to network with other nurses, laugh, share, and much more.
| No. 40 | 
Mar 25, 2009, 09:19 PM
 Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time....
I couldn't help but notice the ten so-called "facts" comparing health care of the US, Canada, France, and the UK, seem to be from a group called the Heritage Foundation (The Foundry ) whose mission is 'to promote conservative public policies...' I believe this information differs from other reports like the WHO. But then this list of "Facts" rings familiar doesn't it? Kinda like the WOMD "Facts" of the previous REGIME.
I can't for the life of me understand why people in the healthcare field would want anything but the best for mankind. We went into a career of caring for people didn't we? Instead I hear comments such as; "if you can't afford it (insurance) then you don't deserve it... or those people (an elderly couple on medicare) are leaching off the system."
And what if we don't provide care for immigrants, how will you feel when you or your family contract one of their exotic diseases like that drug-resistant form of TB?
Were you taught to determine who is deserving of care? What would a compassionate person do?
 | | Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 41 |
Mar 25, 2009, 10:58 PM
 Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by d!gger  People in the USA rarely complain about their socialized police force, or socialized fire department, or socialized roads, or socialized garbage collection, or socialized water company, or socialized millitary, or...
dig
who's thanking gawd we didn't privatize social security a few years back.
A disclaimer on my last social security statement; "by 2041, the payroll taxes collected will be enough to pay only about 75 percent of scheduled benefits." In spite of that, they are still deducting 12.4% from my paycheck, so at this point in time, my private retirement benefits are STILL offering me a better return on investment than Soc. Sec...so no...I am not "thanking gawd" that the gov't refuses to give me a choice in the matter and continues to screw me over.
Next, our police, fire, and garbage services are not even close to socialized. For every ONE cop on a tax-funded payroll, there are TWO MORE people employed to provide provide private security to US citizen's and property. Additionally, not everyone gets the same coverage when it comes to police departments. Some municipalities are covered by just the state police, and may wait hours for someone to respond to a call. Another municipality may be double-covered with state police, and city/burough/township police. Another can have both of those, and then you can add county police AND/OR the sheriff's dept. Where I live, I have all four of those where I live, and the business park across the street ALSO employs private security 24/7. No...not really socialized.
Fire dept? Not even a remotely valid example. Around 70% of firefighters in the US are VOLUNTEER, and a substantial number of these fire departments are NOT tax-funded. Many operated on fundraisers and generate revenue by engaging in FREE MARKET activities such as running a social club, bingo, ambulance services, and by billing INSURANCE for fighting house fires and conducting vehicle rescues. Additionally, quite a few private corporations operate their own private fire deparments because they cannot rely on local fire services. So do you think we should resort to a health-care system where 70% of the providers are volunteer and run bake sales and bingo on the side to generate operating revenue?
And I don't know who is receiving socialized garbage services, but a private company collects my trash, and I pay a monthly fee directly to them (at the same rate as everyone else in my community), and not to any tax municipality. The also have the privilege to stop picking up my trash, or to fine me if I don't put it out according to policy. I also pay the same as everyone else in my city for water, or when I drive on a toll road. That doesn't seem to be what UHC advocates are proposing, so I don't know why these examples are improperly presented as examples of 'socalism.'
And as far as our "socialized roads," expect a change. Cities across the country are dealing with escalating transportation problems that "the gov't" can't seem to fix or address. We are pushing so much for fuel alternatives, we can expect the gov't to realize that they didn't think this issue through regarding the loss in collecting revenue related to gas taxes to fund our highways, and for them to look for options, and one of them includes an expansion of private roads...something COMMON in EUROPE...a region often celebrated for it's social programs.
Our military is the only somewhat valid example, but the reality is that the military does not provide individualized protection. They protect a COUNTRY, so it's not rational to think that there is any other way to do it. It's not possible for them to provide MORE or LESS protection from a foriegn threat to rich people vs. poor people. In the event of a threat, they all would need EQUAL protection, unlike healthcare, where some people need only routine care and others need expensive surgery and therapies.
| | No. 42 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:00 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by leadesign I couldn't help but notice the ten so-called "facts" comparing health care of the US, Canada, France, and the UK, seem to be from a group called the Heritage Foundation (The Foundry ) whose mission is 'to promote conservative public policies...' I believe this information differs from other reports like the WHO. But then this list of "Facts" rings familiar doesn't it? Kinda like the WOMD "Facts" of the previous REGIME.
I can't for the life of me understand why people in the healthcare field would want anything but the best for mankind. We went into a career of caring for people didn't we? Instead I hear comments such as; "if you can't afford it (insurance) then you don't deserve it... or those people (an elderly couple on medicare) are leaching off the system."
And what if we don't provide care for immigrants, how will you feel when you or your family contract one of their exotic diseases like that drug-resistant form of TB?
Were you taught to determine who is deserving of care? What would a compassionate person do?
The NCPA: http://www.ncpa.org/about/ | | No. 44 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:06 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by leadesign I couldn't help but notice the ten so-called "facts" comparing health care of the US, Canada, France, and the UK, seem to be from a group called the Heritage Foundation (The Foundry ) whose mission is 'to promote conservative public policies...' I believe this information differs from other reports like the WHO. But then this list of "Facts" rings familiar doesn't it? Kinda like the WOMD "Facts" of the previous REGIME.
I can't for the life of me understand why people in the healthcare field would want anything but the best for mankind. We went into a career of caring for people didn't we? Instead I hear comments such as; "if you can't afford it (insurance) then you don't deserve it... or those people (an elderly couple on medicare) are leaching off the system."
And what if we don't provide care for immigrants, how will you feel when you or your family contract one of their exotic diseases like that drug-resistant form of TB?
Were you taught to determine who is deserving of care? What would a compassionate person do?
The WHO methodology is flawed; there is a reason why they stopped generating their "rankings" list.
And I have NEVER heard anyone say, "if you can't afford insurance, then you don't deserve it," and I don't believe you ever have...that's my opinion. And I don't know of anyone who thinks that an elderly couple who has paid into medicare taxes ALL THEIR LIVES are somehow leeches. These are hyperbolic emotional claims that are not valid and don't contribute anything valid to the discussion.
There is a limit. Money and healthcare services are a finite resource. We simply can't afford to treat every diseased immigrant who breaks the law and enters our country illegally. If they can access a socialized healthcare system, then they can be deported to their home country where they can obtain healthcare according to the "compassion" and "caring" of their home country. Do you think those countries suddenly become gracious hosts and providers of healthcare to Americans who might fall ill after illegally entering crossing their borders?
| | No. 45 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:10 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time....
Visitors to countries with socialized medicine are treated free of charge when they enter these countries legally. I don't know about illegally.
A friend of my husband's required an emergency appendectomy while on sabbatical in Germany. He says the care he received was wonderful- and 100% free.
| | No. 46 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:17 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by VivaLasViejas A FEW "underinsured"?? What of the 47 million Americans without any insurance at all?  This is a false number; there are not 47 million uninsured Americans. Millions of people improperly included in this number ARE NOT AMERICANS, millions more are people who can afford insurance, but choose to exercise the American tradition of CHOICE and opt out, millions more are people who are eligible for public programs, but have never accessed them because they are too lazy or they simply haven't needed them, and millions more are people who are simply uninsured (again by choice), because they forego formal coverage while they change jobs. Again: Health insurance is NOT health care---that's where we "underinsured" come in, because even though we pay hundreds of dollars per month in premiums, there are bean-counters who have never been to medical or nursing school making life-or-death decisions...........and denying us procedures, drugs, medical equipment, and just about everything they CAN deny us. A socialized sytem just ensures that EVERYONE is underinsured instead of just a few. I am completely serious about this: if we do not yank this evil weed out of our healthcare "system" by its roots and destroy it, no one but the independently wealthy will be able to access medical services in another 20 years. We nurses will be catering to a VIP population while we ourselves do without health care. Is that what the free-marketers want? Oh please. Enough with the hyperbole. A free market guarantees that there will always be the level of healthcare that people are willing to pay for. Me, I'd rather put that $500 bucks into a system that will at least cover part of my medications (one of which is $150 for a 30-day supply, which I'm ALSO paying for out-of-pocket).  I don't care if the rich want to buy extra health care---I think they should, if they want it, and it should be made available to them. But EVERY citizen should be able to access BASIC health services, as we do fire and police protection, schools, clean water, and other "government" services that we enjoy because we are citizens and we pay taxes to support them. I repeat myself; the majority (66%) of "police protection" in this country is PRIVATE. 70% of firefighters are volunteers who don't receive BENEFITS for being volunteer firefighters. Our schools are atrocious, and in countries such as France and the UK (who are often celebrated as examples of what we should emulate), water services are mostly privatized. | | No. 47 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:21 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... A friend of my husband's required an emergency appendectomy while on sabbatical in Germany. He says the care he received was wonderful- and 100% free.
That's part of the problem with the idea of universal health care
It wasn't free, nothing in this world is free, somebody had to pay for it...
| | No. 48 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:25 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by Valerie Salva AMEN AMEN!
I am horrified to think where social security would be now if we had privatized it, and invested the $$ in the stock mkt as Bush was pushing for!
And I think our "socialized" police, military, fire depts, etc. do a damn fine job!
As I said already, Soc. Sec. announced a 25% reduction in my soc. sec. benefit when I retire; this announcement came BEFORE any downturn in the market. The market will recover, but I expect no such recovery from Soc. Sec. In fact, I expect to be lucky to receive any benefit at all when I retire even after spending a lifetime diverting 12.4% of my paycheck into that ponzi scheme.
My private investments are still 30% over my principle. BTW, the same idea was floated by Bill Clinton; it wasn't a Bush invention.
Repeating myself; only a MINORITY percentage of our police and fire services in this country are "socialized," and I seriously doubt that our healthcare system is willing to function according to the same traditions were 70% of us are volunteering and conducting bingo and bake sales on the side (as volunteers) to generate operating revenue. Finally, we don't all get equal coverage when it comes to police and fire services.
| | No. 49 |
Mar 25, 2009, 11:28 PM
Re: I am watching Michael Moore's "Sicko" for the first time.... Originally Posted by leadesign Not to mention the fine job done by the US postal service!
No one gets more or less "postal service" than another. No one gets FREE postal service. Everyone, rich or poor, pays the same for a stamp, money order, or passport.
It seems to be a counterproductive argument; in one post, it seems we want to provide basic healthcare services to everyone regardless of their ability to pay, but then the post office is held up as an example, where people have to pay the same as everyone else...or they get nothing.
|
| 303 members
2,402 guests 2,705
| 46 | | | 1 | | | 13 | | | 2 | | | 10 | | | 17 | | | 11 | | | 16 | | | 16 | | | 42 | | | 14 | | | 21 | | | 23 | | | 20 | | | 24 | |
|
Nursing News