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| Advertisement Sponsored Links | | | | No. 31 | 
Dec 29, 2008, 12:36 PM
 Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by Chico David RN  For any nurse who takes the attitude that "people who want health coverage should go to school and get a good job, like I did", let me just offer a few thoughts:
1. There are and always will be a lot of jobs needed in the world that are relatively low paying jobs, require relatively little schooling to do and give the workers who do them relatively little bargaining leverage. The people who cook your restaurant meals, pick up your garbage, clean your hotel room, perhaps care for your child while you are at work. Most of those jobs today do not offer health insurance. Are you, as a nurse, content that those people should die when they get sick? Are you, as a nurse content that a cancer diagnosis should be an automatic death sentence for them? Are you content that they should have no access to things like treatment for high blood pressure or diabetes? Do you believe that people who do those jobs, who work long hours for low pay, are less a human being than you? Less deserving of life than you?
Or if that just went right by you, try it this way:
2. As more and more Americans are added to the 45 million who have no health coverage and the 15 million more whose coverage is so bad they can't afford to use it, do you think that somebody will start to say something like this: "The reason we can't afford care is that all those nurses are making such high salaries and such good benefits. We need to cut those nurse wages so the rest of us can afford to get care." Have you not noticed the way that government workers are blamed for high taxes? The constant pressure to cut their wages and benefits? How lone will it take, how many people without care, before they come after us?
Or, if that doesn't do it for you, try this:
3. Of the 29 richest countrie in the world, the US spends about twice as much on healthcare as the others, on average and gets no better results on any scale one can measure. And the US is the only one in which private insurance plays a central role. You can have your scare stories, I'll take actual data.
So whichever works for you: simple humanity, self interest, or logic and reason, the answer is the same.
Thank you!
 | | No. 33 |
Dec 29, 2008, 09:33 PM
 Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by RedCell However, there will always be people who make poor financial decisions habitually and there will always be people who are outright lazy and expect something for nothing. I see these people everyday in the OR. If people want to believe in something they should believe in themselves and make something of their lives. Punishing those that are successful in life by redistributing wealth to those with "bad luck" will only hurt America.
I couldn't help but notice that you have chosen to ignore a very good point made by Chico David RN and instead decided to simply repeat yourself. This "I don't want the government taking my money and giving it to someone lazy" argument completely misses the point many of us are attempting to make. There are many jobs that are low paying, but are essential to our current economy. Consider the people who cook your fast food, clean the places where you shop, pick your produce, etc, etc. These are often very hard working people just trying to make ends meet. Are you saying they should have to go without health insurance? Also, you claim people should be responsible for "making something of their lives". Again, this completely ignores the point. These low paying, unglamorous, but necessary jobs still need to be done. Would you prefer that the companies that employ these people simply pay them higher wages, or give them benefits? Where do you think this money is going to come from? Enjoy your $12 fast food combo and your $6 pound of oranges. Bottom line is, health care is something everyone needs and deserves. Health care also costs money. We can either tax a certain percentage of people's income, or we can pay far more for goods and services so that companies can give their employees benefits. Either way, its going to cost you money. Given the kind of income you're likely to make as an RN, you will almost certainly pay less in increased taxes than you would be paying more for goods and services. If you do not believe in paying higher taxes AND you do not believe we should pay the people working in the jobs mentioned above more money, then you are content to essentially profit from the exploitation of cheap labor while millions of people suffer without health care.
| | No. 34 |
Dec 29, 2008, 09:54 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by RedCell Sorry if you found my "scare stories" offensive dude, though I think you were probably referring to the "scare stories" of those that have actually experienced socialized medicine in their native countries. However, there will always be people who make poor financial decisions habitually and there will always be people who are outright lazy and expect something for nothing. I see these people everyday in the OR. If people want to believe in something they should believe in themselves and make something of their lives. Punishing those that are successful in life by redistributing wealth to those with "bad luck" will only hurt America. Goverment does not solve problems by getting involved in the personal lives of Americans, it only creates more problems. Besides, take a look at how long universal health care lasted in the Messiah's homestate. It went bankrupt and failed in less than eight months. Look at other countries such as Russia, Canada, and Japan and see what that boneheaded idea did to their medical systems.
Actually, I find the persistant use of the term "dude" more offensive. It makes a grownup who uses it sound like an uneducated teenager and makes it sound like you are being deliberately disrespectful, which I'm sure you would not intend. More to the point, Russia is such a mess as a country it's hardly a fair comparison and not in any of the lists of wealthy developed countries that are typically referenced on this subject. But as for Canada, Japan, France, Britain, Germany etc, you can't really escape facts: they spend somewhere between 40 and 60% of what we spend, whether you measure it in per capita dollars or percent of GDP, they get measurable results that are about as good as ours and sometimes much better on every scale you can come up with, and surveys of satisfaction report that the people in those countries are as much or often more satisfied with their systems than Americans are with ours.
For some samples of what actual data looks like,
try this: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html
or this: http://www.pnhp.org/single_payer_res...le_canadas.php
or this: http://dollarsandsense.org/archives/...8harrison.html
Interestingly, even though I put very little faith in anecdotal stories and would much rather rely on data, I do have a little personal experience with health care in France. Very limited, but very good: on a national holiday, in a small town, we were able to see a private doctor in her office within an hour of calling for an appointment, got good care, paid a reasonable price and got prescriptions for two meds that cost a total of 25 euro to fill. If that was a sample, it was way better than our experience would have been anywhere in this country.
Finally, just to ask for a clarification: Do you in fact believe that people who do low paying jobs, work hard for long hours, struggling to feed their families (maybe the people who clean your hospital, or change the oil in your car or cook your hamburgers) are in your categories of those who (to use your words) "make poor decisions" are "lazy" and want "something for nothing"? If you are so contemptuous of those people, how do you propose that those jobs get done? And if the jobs are necessary, do not the people who do them deserve the chance to survive and have access to decent care? Or are they so expendable that their deaths are meaningless - after all they can be easily replaced?
| | No. 35 |
Dec 29, 2008, 10:53 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by HM2Viking Sources?
I appreciate you asking this, but seeing as how this person has the same ignorant, utterly false, and pathetic arguments as every other neo-con, I can promise you he or she will not bother to quote sources, because what they have said is completely untrue. I think somewhere, deep down, they know that.
None the less, I'll try to point out the most obvious and ridiculous flaws. Tough to decide where to start. Originally Posted by broadwayrn[/quote 1. It's not good for our health, there isn't a single government agency that runs efficiently, do we really want an organization that developed the U.S. Tax Code handling something as complex as health care?
Please provide evidence as to why every single other (look it up, please) industrialized country has universal health coverage, and we do not. Please explain why this is so. In addition, please explain the following...
1. Are you aware that we pay more per country, by FAR, than any other country for health care?
2. Are you aware that we get LESS than any other country, by FAR in terms of the quality of our care, and the accessability of said care?
3. Are you aware that our infant mortality rate, and life expectancy fall far below that of other countries? (all with UHC) National health care means the costs will be spread to all Americans, regardless of your health or your need for medical care, which is fundamentally unfair.
Fair has nothing to do with it, buddy. It may be unfair that I have to pay taxes in your town to keep your house from burning down when firemen come to put out a fire. It may be unfair when you have to pay taxes to help staff a police force 24/7 that may only help other people, but that's life.
Don't like it? Move to Fiji, or Rwanda, where they don't have to deal with such 'unfair' realities. Why is health care any different than police and fire protection? This American Does NOT want National Health Care. I think it would be a huge mistake.
Then we are beyond fortunate that you don't make decisions for the American people. If it were up to people like you, you would make our police and fire services 'pay to play'.
The saddest thing of all is that people like you are too short sighted to even see that a healthier society would benefit you directly. So you can keep on being as selfish as you want...just at least be smart about it.
Oh, and 'liberty-page' is not a source. I'm assuming you've been to college, and know what a source is...correct? I am British. My grandfather died after an MI, needing a CABG, he didn't qualify because he was retired and no longer paid taxes. 72 years old.
My aunt had ovarian cancer at age 68 and was only treated pallitively because there were younger woman who were in line ahead of her. She died.
My cousin had a toothache, needed a root canal, had to wait 6 weeks for her root canal, ended up with infection in the bone, even though she was on antibiotics. She died at age 38.
An uncle had afib. They refused to do an ablation on him because he was a smoker. He was in his 50's when he died.
These are a few examples from real life. I'll keep my private insurance Thank You.
I have a great feeling you're lying through your teeth on this one. Nothing you said is true, unless there is something you aren't telling us. None of the things you stated would or do happen under that system, and again, you're making the claim so you'll have to prove it. Additionally, the notion that a private, for-profit system wouldn't have just let them rot, is laughable. That is their job. I'm sorry you like facts and figures so much.
LOL. Folks, please pay attention to this. When you argue about universal health care...consider that the people who hate the truth and facts are always, ALWAYS the ones arguing against a universal system of coverage. They are wrong, they know they are wrong, and are content to live in a fantasy world. Too bad.
I know full well that Broadway RN won't be back to argue any of this, because he is completely outmatched, and is not used to people demanding facts rather than angry scare-mongering opinions...but I hope that people who are on the fence about this, can honestly take a look around, see that our system is broken, do actual RESEARCH, find out the truth about what is happening in this country and in others, and honestly reconsider the private, for-profit system. People are dying and suffering imaginable horrors, and for what? Because of a claim denial? Please...think of someone other than yourself...if just for once.
| | No. 36 |
Dec 29, 2008, 11:53 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by RedCell Sorry if you found my "scare stories" offensive dude, though I think you were probably referring to the "scare stories" of those that have actually experienced socialized medicine in their native countries. However, there will always be people who make poor financial decisions habitually and there will always be people who are outright lazy and expect something for nothing. I see these people everyday in the OR. If people want to believe in something they should believe in themselves and make something of their lives. Punishing those that are successful in life by redistributing wealth to those with "bad luck" will only hurt America. Goverment does not solve problems by getting involved in the personal lives of Americans, it only creates more problems. Besides, take a look at how long universal health care lasted in the Messiah's homestate. It went bankrupt and failed in less than eight months. Look at other countries such as Russia, Canada, and Japan and see what that boneheaded idea did to their medical systems.
you're totally missing the point. no one is punishing you. and it sickens me that a nurse makes such blanket statements.
your attitude stinks, dude.
| | No. 37 |
Dec 30, 2008, 03:27 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by flightnurse2b you're totally missing the point. no one is punishing you. and it sickens me that a nurse makes such blanket statements.
your attitude stinks, dude.
actually, yours stinks as well, but none the less something has to be done for those who can not afford insurance in the USA.
1. if we are going to make insurance affordable for those who can not afford it and if that means healthy Americans who contribute to society then I am for it
2. Nothing is free in this world, everyone has to be paid for something, people who use UHC should be responsible for some of the cost like affordable insurance.
3. Preventative care should be covered ie cholesterol screens, BP screens, Flu shots , etc
I love how liberals find a way to bash conservatives in these postings, no actually I dont I am a conservative
| | No. 38 |
Dec 30, 2008, 03:53 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Originally Posted by patrick1rn actually, yours stinks as well, but none the less something has to be done for those who can not afford insurance in the USA.
1. if we are going to make insurance affordable for those who can not afford it and if that means healthy Americans who contribute to society then I am for it
2. Nothing is free in this world, everyone has to be paid for something, people who use UHC should be responsible for some of the cost like affordable insurance.
3. Preventative care should be covered ie cholesterol screens, BP screens, Flu shots , etc
I love how liberals find a way to bash conservatives in these postings, no actually I dont I am a conservative
I agree with you that something has to be done for those who can not afford insurance. Absolutely preventative care must be included. And all those able to pay must do so.
In addition I think people who pay for health insurance have all too often been denied the health care they paid for.
We need healthcare for all, not insurance for all because insurance is no guarantee that you will get the care you need when you need it.
We already pay for those of us who are >65, disabled, and on dialysis. We taxpayers also pay for our military and their dependents. We pay for district and county hospitals and clinics. Of course our veterans deserve the finest care and I pray it will improve soon.
All too many young healthy working people don't choose to pay for insurance so we pay for those who are injured or become ill.
When we all pay a slightly higher tax and all are covered under a single payer publicly administered system all the good smart people who do the red tape for billing different insurance companies, who work as "deniers", and the top management who get millions we pay for healthcare will do useful work. http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org/facts | | No. 39 |
Jan 05, 2009, 10:03 PM
Re: 10 Excellent Reasons for National Health Care Why should I work hard only to have the government take a portion of my money to give it to my dumbass brother?
Because it is the right thing to do!
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