Two questions...one may be stupid :)

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Jan 17, 2014

Yes and in the US it has started that they will not hire any 2 year degree RN. Our diploma schools are almost gone....in it's place are the 2 year degree RN's ....they just don't take all the collegiate fluff....in my honest opinion. There is a huge push in the US for BSN as entry level at the bedside...so us old dinosaurs are being left out.....that and we cost too much.

Laura in Canada · Jan 17, 2014

So the difference is that the diploma RN has 2 years training? My training was 3 years for the diploma RN. What about the ADN, how many years training?

Laura

rebnelson · Jan 17, 2014

Hi Laura. In the United States, diploma programs have pretty much been phased out almost completely. I don't think there was any standard length of training for diploma RNs..... I think it varied depending on the institution. Diploma nurses were primarily trained through internal hospital systems and from what I understand all of the training was hands on clinical. I don't believe much was in the classroom. In the US, an ADN program is what is called a "2-year" degree however I think most of us who started with an ADN will all agree that the ADN took many of us more like 5 or 6 years to get if you count all the time it took to take your prerequisite classes required for the program and then many of us had to wait on a waiting list to get accepted into the actual ADN program. I live in the Phoenix, AZ area and at this time most of our major hospitals are starting to list on their open RN positions that if you don't currently have a BSN, they expect you to agree to get one by a certain year like 2016 or 2020 depending on the hospital. That is one of their stipulations now. I just started working for a new hospital this month and right now they are only interviewing BSN and higher level nurses because they are in the process of attaining the Magnet designation. The difference in BSN nurses at least in current times is that BSN nurses are highly trained in research methods and "evidence-based practice". For myself, nursing is a 2nd career and I first earned by ADN in 2010 and then went on to earn my BSN in 2012. Personally I did feel that my BSN was valuable because I enjoy learning and I do believe that there are advantages to evidence based practice. That is not at all to say that I in any way discount the nurses like you who can run circles around me because of your years of front-line experience on the floor of the hospital. I embrace anyone like you and wish that I could just have 10% of your experience and knowledge. In my opinion, the best facilities are those that look to hire a mix such as the very experienced nurses like yourself as well as the newer nurses like me so that we can all learn from each other.

I can tell you that my brother is a very high level computer programmer here in the US and he barely has a high-school degree. In his field, experience definitely counts more than education so I can certainly understand where you are coming from. He has been turned down by companies that were focusing strictly on degree and his feelings are that he wouldn't want to work for companies like that anyways just because of their lack of forward thinking. Especially in the field of computers, in the time that it takes someone to get a degree, what they have learned is already out-of-date when they finish their degree.

Good luck! You sound like a great nurse!

Laura in Canada · Jan 17, 2014

Thanks for your response. That clarifies it for me.

Here in Canada they are also in the process of phasing out the diploma RNs. Many provinces require new nurses to have a minimum of a BN to start practicing. Us old nurses are "grandfathered" (man I hate that term :)) and are allowed to continue practicing.

It's interesting you mentioned your brother in the computer industry. My hubby is also in the computer industry. He has a high school leaving and a boat load of certifications but no degree. It's not as big of an issue in his industry as it is in ours. That's too bad.

I agree with you...employers should hire based not only on degrees but experience as well.

Thanks!

Laura

llg, PhD, RN · Jan 17, 2014

There has been some misleading information posted here. I'll try to rephrase and clarify a bit.

Several decades ago, most Registered Nurses (RN's) in the United States were educated in nursing schools run by hospital systems. While certainly there was some variation from school to school, over the years the standard curriculum for a hospital diploma program was 3 years of both classroom and direct hands-on clinical work. Note though, that because the classes were not taught by a college or university, the students did not receive the same formal academic credit that students in academic settings (colleges & universities) received. That made it extremely difficult and expensive for graduates of those schools to continue their education and get BSN, MSN, PhD, etc.

By the late 20th century, most diploma progams had either closed, or had established affiliation agreements with colleges/universities for their students could get formal academic credit for their work and progress more smoothly into BSN programs and beyond. Some have estblished themselves as colleges and offer BSN's now. At the current time, there are only a handful of diploma programs left.

Also, in the mid 20th century, the United States established Associate Degree programs in nursing. These were originally established at 2-year Community Colleges and were intended to give a quick and less expensive access to enty-level nursing positions. However, over time, those ADN programs have morphed into many different things. In some areas of the country, the lack of BSN programs and BSN nurses led employers to hire ADN level nurses into leadership positions -- leading people to believe there was no need for any nurse to have higher level education. In some places, the need for ADN grads to practice in roles beyond entry level positions led the ADN schools to add courses to their curricula -- making them 3 (full time) years long instead of the original 2. And in other areas, corporations have started to offer "accelerated" ADN degrees that can be completed in a little as 15 months.

As you can see, we have a bit of a confusing mess as each state and each school has had the freedom to evolve as it wished as long as it offers the basic education that meets the principles set forth by the Board of Nursing for each state. As the profession has tried to promote increased standardization of educational programs and educational standards, proponents of each type of program and alumni have become passionate about preserving what it is best about each type of program, making it difficult to promote consistency. No one wants to see "their program" changed significantly as it suggests that there was something "wrong" about the way they were educated.

It's a painful process for the nursing profession to experience, but probably a necessary one as we continue to evolve to meet the challenges of the 21st century.

CalRNtoBe2013 · Jan 17, 2014

Yes and in the US it has started that they will not hire any 2 year degree RN. Our diploma schools are almost gone....in it's place are the 2 year degree RN's ....they just don't take all the collegiate fluff....in my honest opinion. There is a huge push in the US for BSN as entry level at the bedside...so us old dinosaurs are being left out.....that and we cost too much.

I just graduated from a 2 year program in December. Over half of my class, including myself, has either started as a GN or has a position being held for after the NCLEX. I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that a 2 year degree won't get you a job.

Fiona59 · Jan 17, 2014

Thanks for your response. That clarifies it for me.
Here in Canada they are also in the process of phasing out the diploma RNs. Many provinces require new nurses to have a minimum of a BN to start practicing. Us old nurses are "grandfathered" (man I hate that term :)) and are allowed to continue practicing. .
Laura

Laura, I think you are a bit behind in the nursing education news. Currently the degree is the entry to practice point for all new grads, with the exception being Quebec (and we all know they are in their own little world). Alberta graduated it's last diploma RN in 2009.

Currently the LPN education in Alberta and Ontario is the old diploma RN course.

There was a big push here in Alberta around 2002-4 for diploma RNs to top up to degree level but it's pretty much died out.

If you want to become a unit manager you need a degree.

rebnelson · Jan 17, 2014

I just graduated from a 2 year program in December. Over half of my class, including myself, has either started as a GN or has a position being held for after the NCLEX. I have to respectfully disagree with your statement that a 2 year degree won't get you a job.

CalRNtoBe2013 I think it is great that in your area you and your classmates had easy access to jobs straight out of your program, but unfortunately that is completely dependent on the area that you live and not all students are as lucky. Here in the greater Phoenix area most of us straight out of the ADN program had to fight long and hard even to get a job in a long term care facility. Hospitals rarely hire new grads around here because of the costs involved in training the brand new RNs. Even after a year or more of working long term care in order to get into a hospital I finally had to "pull a few strings" and managed to get in because I had a friend that worked on the unit. Many of my friends had to move out of state in order to get jobs. So in our area although there is always big news about nursing shortages at the hospitals, what they really mean is a shortage of EXPERIENCED nurses. I got my ADN in 2010 and I still have friends from that time that have not been able to get a job in the hospital environment.

CalRNtoBe2013 · Jan 17, 2014

CalRNtoBe2013 I think it is great that in your area you and your classmates had easy access to jobs straight out of your program but unfortunately that is completely dependent on the area that you live and not all students are as lucky. Here in the greater Phoenix area most of us straight out of the ADN program had to fight long and hard even to get a job in a long term care facility. Hospitals rarely hire new grads around here because of the costs involved in training the brand new RNs. Even after a year or more of working long term care in order to get into a hospital I finally had to "pull a few strings" and managed to get in because I had a friend that worked on the unit. Many of my friends had to move out of state in order to get jobs. So in our area although there is always big news about nursing shortages at the hospitals, what they really mean is a shortage of EXPERIENCED nurses. I got my ADN in 2010 and I still have friends from that time that have not been able to get a job in the hospital environment.[/quote']
I'm sorry to hear that! I think it's unfair to rule-out ADN nurses because it's a shorter program. In my state, we get the same amount of clinical experience, if not more than a BSN program. Granted, most of us have already committed to RN-BSN programs, but it still shouldn't make a difference. The economy is terrible right now and some people can only afford a 2 year program. Some are adult students. Many are second career nurses. It's ridiculous to judge someone solely based on ADN vs BSN. When it is all said & done, we take the same NCLEX.

Ruby Vee, BSN · Jan 17, 2014

Okay, stupid one first. As you can tell from my handle, I am a Canadian nurse. I have my RN diploma that I got at a community college. Here in Canada, we have RNs with a diploma, RN with a Bachelor's (BScN or BN), as well as Masters, Nurse Practitioner and even Doctorate. Now I see all the American nurses talking about diploma and ADN....what in the world is the difference???
Question two: I'm a 51 year old crusty old nurse without a degree. I have going on 29 years experience in everything from gerontology to pediatrics to pharmaceutical and then some. I'm asked all the time if I'm going to go for my degree. I always answer "why?" I have no plans to retire yet (if ever...I'm sure I'll drop dead with a stethoscope around my neck) and my experience counts for a lot. IMO going for my degree (online) would be a waste of both my time and money. Sure, I've been turned down for jobs that I could do in my sleep because of my lack of degree...but if they don't want me, then it's their loss. Is there anyone else out there like me? Simply not interested in getting that coveted degree. If so, have you been turned down for jobs because of it? Do you sometimes find that you're looked down on...for lack of a better term...because of it...especially from potential employers?
Just wondering.

Welcome to AN!

No, you are not the only one. My husband graduated with a diploma in nursing and has been working at the bedside for 30 years. He, too has been turned down for a couple of jobs he wanted due to lack of a degree, but like you, he figured it was their loss. He's also had some awesome jobs that he really loved. He's retiring next January, and has no thoughts of getting a degree. Why waste the time and the money when the sailboat needs so much work before we move aboard next year?

generalRN2008 · Jan 18, 2014

Diploma was hospital or church based training all on the job some theory but no formal college degree. ADN is community college and tech schools. BSN is a university level.