SICK of BSN Pedestal

[DUDERNGUY]

Get off the Pedestal with the whole BSN vs ADN thing. A fact this is overlooked is that ADN does the same job as BSN and passes the NCLEX. Everyone then cried ADN is uneducated blah blah. WHY dont we look at the 4 year universities instead? Why doesnt the BSN itself advance? Because taking an extra gym glass doesnt deserve it. Look at all the worthless pre reqs that you BSN's are taking over the ADN. It isnt making you a better nurse its all about the money the school systems are a business. We need to change the education system. SWAP out that spanish you are going to forget the second after the test and take some critical thinking. Be gone with that Open elective to take baking class and replace it with PSYCH. The problem is the ADN is a efficient degree with time/pre-reqs and the BSN is created to give the "big man" money. Sorry if you wasted 100k in debt.

why are hospitals going magnet? because the universities are lobbiest to the hospitals. Universites need there money and they dont like ADNs getting the jobs BSNs are getting for a fraction of the cost. Universities have paid, persuaded, and convinced hospitals to go magnet and it is not because 4 year nurses are better.

IF universities ever decide to stop the worthless pre reqs and uni requirements then maybe one day a BSN nurse would have a true advantage.

[Guest343211]

The discussion is a tired one. We have to move on, because the system is. I never hear teachers whining over their baseline educational requirements. And nowadays, right, wrong, or indifferent, the grad degree or doctoral is what will move you ahead in education, the social science professions, and even in law. Look how many are going for the JD option.

I am not saying I don't have a problem with the educational systems. I think financially they are seriously crippling many, and our country as a whole. Government needs to get out of running it, but it won't, the monster that it is becoming.

It isn't, however, unreasonable for nursing to have a baseline education across the board. It's ridiculous how nursing roles in this country. There are too many tiers, and they couldn't really change things all at once, but now they have the opportunity.

Jobs are going out of the hospital. It is reported on in business spheres regularly. The expenses of inhospital often outweigh the profit margins. This is not rocket science. It is just that people are refusing to see things for what they really are.

[nursel56]

The discussion is a tired one. We have to move on, because the system is. I never hear teachers whining over their baseline educational requirements. And nowadays, right, wrong, or indifferent, the grad degree or doctoral is what will move you ahead in education, the social science professions, and even in law. Look how many are going for the JD option.

I am not saying I don't have a problem with the educational systems. I think financially they are seriously crippling many, and our country as a whole. Government needs to get out of running it, but it won't, the monster that it is becoming.

It isn't, however, unreasonable for nursing to have a baseline education across the board. It's ridiculous how nursing roles in this country. There are too many tiers, and they couldn't really change things all at once, but now they have the opportunity.

Jobs are going out of the hospital. It is reported on in business spheres regularly. The expenses of inhospital often outweigh the profit margins. This is not rocket science. It is just that people are refusing to see things for what they really are.

One could argue that the baseline requirement is graduating from an associate's or getting a diploma and passing the NCLEX. What confuses me about all this, that prior to the current economic conditions putting hospitals in a position to choose from a large number of candidates for one job, we've heard very little clamoring in the last 47 years from hospitals or other entities who hire RNs for more education when the number of employed RNs has been around 60% ADN in recent years.

It's not for lack of trying the ANA and others haven't been able to get any new laws on the books, so who is creating the resistance? Who lobbied the North Dakota legislature to get their BSN-required law repealed? Why haven't those corporate bean-counters begun to press hard for new laws now that there is a respite in the shortage?

It could be true that nursing doesn't value further education, but it's more likely that most (because I know there are exceptions out there) corporations that run large healthcare systems are those who don't value it. Canada (I heard from one Canadian nurse) gives both tuition assistance and stipend funds for nurses to go back to school. Teachers get an automatic raise when they earn another degree. It's one thing to print "BSN preferred" in your classified ad and another to put your money where your mouth is and throw in with the BSN-required campaign. I would argue that not only do they not support education, they want to turn us into little script-spouting Barbie (and Ken) dolls.

[Guest343211]

One could argue that the baseline requirement is graduating from an associate's or getting a diploma and passing the NCLEX. What confuses me about all this, that prior to the current economic conditions putting hospitals in a position to choose from a large number of candidates for one job, we've heard very little clamoring in the last 47 years from hospitals or other entities who hire RNs for more education when the number of employed RNs has been around 60% ADN in recent years.

It's not for lack of trying the ANA and others haven't been able to get any new laws on the books, so who is creating the resistance? Who lobbied the North Dakota legislature to get their BSN-required law repealed? Why haven't those corporate bean-counters begun to press hard for new laws now that there is a respite in the shortage?

It could be true that nursing doesn't value further education, but it's more likely that most (because I know there are exceptions out there) corporations that run large healthcare systems are those who don't value it. Canada (I heard from one Canadian nurse) gives both tuition assistance and stipend funds for nurses to go back to school. Teachers get an automatic raise when they earn another degree. It's one thing to print "BSN preferred" in your classified ad and another to put your money where your mouth is and throw in with the BSN-required campaign. I would argue that not only do they not support education, they want to turn us into little script-spouting Barbie (and Ken) dolls.

Regardless, the reality is the reality.

The business side of healthcare IMHO could care less about the nursing profession and its level of education. They are taking advantage of an opportunity--Keeping nursing association folks happy, while also tightening the requirements for jobs. Esme is quite right. They also have less to pay in terms of tuition if they hire folks that are already BSN. The graduate-degree applicants fall off after that, statistically speaking. So, they know most aren't going for graduate degrees. It's a numbers game.

Even to work outside of the hospital, the requirement is moving to BSN--especially for anything with clinical mgt mobility. So while agree with you, the situation is what it is. It makes no sense to ****** about it.

Also, there are still positions that could be filled in house. They have cut them. Because of the economy, they have shut them down--they have shut down a lot of the hiring.

[uRNmyway, ASN, RN]

Ok, this is a very much discussed topic. I see both sides of the coin on this.

I graduated from nursing school in Quebec. My degree is the US equivalent of the ADN, maybe even 'just' a diploma. However, I passed the same exam as someone who got a BSN. And I had to take 4 French classes, 3 English classes, 3 PE classes, and 3 'complimentary

' classes, on top of the core classes. Granted, I didn't have to pay for each class individually because of the system there, but still, I do think my 3 years could have been better spent on classes more relevant to the nursing field.

Where I am from, BSN nurses graduate with NO clinical experience. Sure, they might have more overall knowledge, and be better placed for management and research positions, but can they install a Foley or draw blood? Nope. Bedside manner and experience goes a long way IMO.

Now do I think that getting more education is a bad thing? Of course not! I am planning on entering an RN to Masters program as soon as I can afford it. The only reason I didn't continue my education earlier is because I was tired of being a broke student and wanted to gain some work experience.

People from both sides just need to chill out. ADN nurses need to quit being hateful to those seeking to better themselves with more knowledge. Knowledge is power. And BSN nurses need to stop looking down on the ADN nurses and assuming they are idiots who just couldn't handle the BSN.

This is like the LPN vs. RN debate...lol

[uRNmyway, ASN, RN]

@DUDERNGUY

It sounds to me like you're jealous. The fact that us BSN graduates are getting ahead over an ADN such as yourself and the fact that you are forced to have to go back to school and spend more money (you already spent money to go to an ADN program and now you have to start from scratch to get a BSN, wasting not only your money but time too). $100,000 in debt? Nope, no loans and no debt here thanks to scholarships and government aid. :)

You only went to school for TWO years. What could you have possibly learned? Jokes on you for having to have struggled through a two year program only to find out you can't get a job. Don't worry, a BSN nurse will do the job better than you EVER will.

The fact that you are so anger and bitter only reinforces that you are uneducated with your measly Associate's. By the way, what are the first 3 letters of Associate's Degree? Because that's what you are, DUDERNGUY.

And this attitude my friends is why so many people with ADNs resent the BSN nurses. Being told that OUR degree is useless and that we didn't learn anything? Being told that a BSN nurse would do the job better than us? Being called an ass? Yes, I think DUDERNGUY was an ass with his post. However, I think this poster played that role pretty darn well too!

[psu_213, BSN, RN]

This thread is still going on?? Pretty sad.

[Susie2310]

Hmm - so are you going to ignore the increasing amount of research that links > BSN% staff with better patient outcomes? (American Association of Colleges of Nursing | Creating a More Highly Qualified Nursing Workforce) I realize that this is an emotional issue for some, but critical thinking should not stop at the bedside.

Critical thinking should not stop at nurse educators either. I clicked on the link and see the study frequently referenced is the Aiken study. As I posted earlier, MunroRN and his/her state work group analyzed the evidence and conclusions drawn and decided not to accept the conclusions. MunroRN posted on this forum recently "BSN as entry into practice: Why we decided against it." Did you review the findings of MunroRN's work group?

[redhead_NURSE98!, ADN, BSN]

@DUDERNGUY

It sounds to me like you're jealous. The fact that us BSN graduates are getting ahead over an ADN such as yourself and the fact that you are forced to have to go back to school and spend more money (you already spent money to go to an ADN program and now you have to start from scratch to get a BSN, wasting not only your money but time too). $100,000 in debt? Nope, no loans and no debt here thanks to scholarships and government aid. :)

"Start from scratch?" Maybe if you went to a for-profit school that advertises heavily on television...

Wow, I just saw this post pre-edit on someone's reply...I suppose I understand why you wrote what you wrote, but.....yeah my opinion of this person isn't too high right now.

[BrandonLPN, LPN]

I still don't understand how having multiple entry levels to being a nurse (ie LPN, ADN, BSN) somehow degrades the profession. True, medicine doesn't have different tiers or educational levels, but nursing is not medicine. Nursing encompasses a much, much broader scope of duties and possible professions. Nursing can range from basic, routine bedside care to complex case management. Having multiple levels of nurses compliments this. Do we really need BSN trained nurses working the floor in LTC? More power to them, but we all know they're only there because of the tight job market.

What's wrong with having different levels of nurses with different levels of education? That's what the different scopes of practice are for. Maybe BSNs need their "own" licensure with it's "own" SOP. One that's separate (higher) than the ADNs.

And will eliminating the ADN and LPNs really make you feel more respected? Whose respect are you vying for? If you want to continue your education, no one is stopping anyone. But why the desire to quash the ADN (and by extension LPN)? I question the motives of BSNs who propose this. Do they truly believe the ADNs working next to them are incapable of doing their jobs? Or is it just narcissism, them wanting to obtain some sort of (unobtainable) parity with physicians?

One thing I hear over and over on these boards are the "BSN only" crowd saying that the work with wonderful ADN/diploma RNs who are wonderful nurses who are great at their job. In the same post they go on to say that all RNs should be BSNs and only BSNs can provide a safe level of care. Doesn't anyone see the HUGE logic lapse there?

[jadelpn, LPN, EMT-B]

This is completely from an outsiders perspective--but the NCLEX is exactly the same whether one is diploma, ADN or BSN, no? And if all ya'll pass the same exact test, then does it matter? So in other words, everyone goes into it with the same goal--to pass the NCLEX. A new grad is a new grad regardless of one's degree. So to further say that as an LPN I have shown my fair share of clincal skills to a new grad BSN, RNs as well as ADN, RNs, welp, lets just agree that each and every level of nursing has their strengths. But most of them are learned by experience. So one can have a master's and if one is not working, then it is not worth the paper your degree is printed on, except for the feeling of well being that education in itself can give one. Interestingly, if a current Diploma or ADN doesn't have any desire for managment, but are required to get their BSN in a set amount of time, do the duties of said nurse magically change? Is the pay scale that much more? If everyone is passing the same test, that should be the end of it. Unless someone wants to be management or advanced practice, then by all means, carry on then.

[BrandonLPN, LPN]

And I'm really not trying to come off as "anti-education" or anything, though I suppose to many that's exactly how it seems. I have nothing against BSNs. And Im not one of those who says BSNs are less prepared clinically than ADNs. How could more education make one less prepared? That's just dumb. I'm just not convinced that a batchelors is necessary for every nursing job out there. Does that make me against higher education? If you had to hear constant implications that *your* job needs to be phased out, you'd be a little defensive too.

[yadi87]

I still don't understand how having multiple entry levels to being a nurse (ie LPN, ADN, BSN) somehow degrades the profession. True, medicine doesn't have different tiers or educational levels, but nursing is not medicine. Nursing encompasses a much, much broader scope of duties and possible professions. Nursing can range from basic, routine bedside care to complex case management. Having multiple levels of nurses compliments this. Do we really need BSN trained nurses working the floor in LTC? More power to them, but we all know they're only there because of the tight job market. What's wrong with having different levels of nurses with different levels of education? That's what the different scopes of practice are for. Maybe BSNs need their "own" licensure with it's "own" SOP. One that's separate (higher) than the ADNs. And will eliminating the ADN and LPNs really make you feel more respected? Whose respect are you vying for? If you want to continue your education, no one is stopping anyone. But why the desire to quash the ADN (and by extension LPN)? I question the motives of BSNs who propose this. Do they truly believe the ADNs working next to them are incapable of doing their jobs? Or is it just narcissism, them wanting to obtain some sort of (unobtainable) parity with physicians?One thing I hear over and over on these boards are the "BSN only" crowd saying that the work with wonderful ADN/diploma RNs who are wonderful nurses who are great at their job. In the same post they go on to say that all RNs should be BSNs and only BSNs can provide a safe level of care. Doesn't anyone see the HUGE logic lapse there?

I completely agree with this post