Protect your profession... - page 7

Hello fellow professionals, May I have your attention please. An allnurses.com user by the name of nursebrandie made a valid point in the emergency nursing subforum that I would like to discuss... Read More

  1. by   Kelly_the_Great
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    If more BSNs did JUST THAT, then there would be a differential that actually justified the increased education AND more people would pursue that difference, both those already in the field, and those making choices of their education pathways.

    You want me to go back and get my BSN. Fair enough. But first, show me a reason why I should. I'll believe the rhetoric about higher pay and respect only when I see it.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Hey Timothy,

    I was inspired by you to even ask regarding the pay differential (ref. to ADN vs. BSN forum)...

    Believe it or not, we just attended a recruitment luncheon with the other of the 2 hospitals and not a 1 of us asked!

    It all goes back to, if we don't advocate for ourselves, how do we effectively advocate for our patients? Unfortunately, this school of thought is not promoted within our higher institutions of learning...

    It's up to us to ask for/demand the respect we deserve for the additional education and as you have said before, the only true tangible means by doing this is in pay. There shouldn't be any shame it, yet we've been made to feel $$$ is a dirty word...:uhoh21: :stone It's a return in our investment ~ simple economics.

    Moreover, we should defend our profession and enhance, illustrate and promote all that we do for and have to offer our clients. I mean hospitals could just as easily pay tons of UAPs and only a token few RNs to "supervise" them all as far as they're concerned, ya know? Or as Linda observed continue to pay our counterparts (birthed originally from nursing itself) more and more $$$ while we get left behind, complaining.
  2. by   zenman
    Quote from MayisontheWay

    So much of my BSN program was USELESS information. Can a paramedic, RT, OT, PT, CRNA, NM or OB-GYN say the same? Oh to have spent a year with half clinical half didactic ICU education. Instead, I have a whole lot of USELESS information about OB, community health, mental health, etc.
    This is precisely why I'll never work in a hospital again. Many nurses just seem to lack any sense at all. Yep, community health and mental health rank way down on the bottom of the list...

    As an ex ARMY medic, paramedic and helicopter flight nurse, I can tell you that technical skills maybe account for 10% of what's useful. Been there, done that...don't need your opinion. Now, get some community health and mental health experience and see how much in demand you are when the electricity goes out and there is no backup generator for days or weeks...like in New Orleans for example.

    Without my community health background, last year I'd probably have spent many more hours trying to figure out why over 100 people were puking their guts out all over my area. But, I stayed awake in community health and, along with a CDC physician, quickly figured out what the problem was before the number reached 200.

    Sometimes I just wished the moderators would ban me for life.
  3. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Careful what you wish for, rofl, Zen.

    Just kidding. I appreciate your insight. Thanks.
  4. by   llg
    Quote from zenman
    This is precisely why I'll never work in a hospital again. Many nurses just seem to lack any sense at all. Yep, community health and mental health rank way down on the bottom of the list...

    As an ex ARMY medic, paramedic and helicopter flight nurse, I can tell you that technical skills maybe account for 10% of what's useful. Been there, done that...don't need your opinion. Now, get some community health and mental health experience and see how much in demand you are when the electricity goes out and there is no backup generator for days or weeks...like in New Orleans for example.

    Without my community health background, last year I'd probably have spent many more hours trying to figure out why over 100 people were puking their guts out all over my area. But, I stayed awake in community health and, along with a CDC physician, quickly figured out what the problem was before the number reached 200.

    Sometimes I just wished the moderators would ban me for life.

    Great post. Thank you. Too few nurses appreciate what they learn, or rather, what their schools are trying to teach them. The technical skills are the easy part -- easily learned on the job as you have a need for them. In fact, many technical skills are BEST taught in the course of on-the-job training. The role of a college education is to teach/learn the other things that provide a broader and deeper perspective of the here-and-now details of daily life.
  5. by   gerry79
    Quote from lindarn
    And PT, OT, Pharmacy, Dieticians, ALL require a graduate level of education, and ALL MAKE ALOT MORE MONEY THAN NURSING. They are leaving us in
    their dust. We will continue to be rolled into the room rate, along with the complimentary roll of toilet paper, and box of Kleenex.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington

    In my area RN's make as much as OT's, and more than Dietician's, and LICSW's (Masters educated). The starting salary for a new grad in Boston is $62,000 per year. I have quite a few friends who are teachers, social workers, and police officers who do not make what a new grad nurse makes. Dental Hygienist, who also have dual professional entry, start at $65,000 per year and seem to coexist just fine. I am all for advanced education and professional respect, but are we as nurses really that bad off? Would more education equate to more respect? From what I have read on this website, MD's dont respect NP's who are highly educated, CRNA's are at times not well received by anesthesioloigist, and to many lay persons a nurse is a nurse weather a Diploma, ADN, BSN, or MSN graduate. Nursing represents the largest faction of health care workers yet it seems wield the least amount of power. It reminds me of old South Africa (for lack of a better analogy) where the few ruled the many for years because the many were slow to unify. Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthening nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally.. is there not strenght in numbers? Is the sky indeed falling on the nursing profession? Some whow I dont thinks so, but only time will tell I guess........Just my .02 cents
    Last edit by gerry79 on Mar 19, '07
  6. by   Marie_LPN, RN
    Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthining nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally.. is there not strenght in numbers?
    :yeahthat: !!!!
  7. by   Batman24
    The ADN programs where I live are between 68-71 credits. I will continue schooling after I graduate so I can work and obtain my Masters at the same time.

    I have been raked over the coals as far as transferring classes go. I have been out of school for more that 8 years so I need to take math tests, etc. all over again. This of course potentially leads to taking more and more pre-reqs. It's all about the green.

    I had one school tell me I might need to take my psych class again and I drew the line at that. Enough is enough already. Another school needed a 1 credit computer class and I had an A in a programming class worth 3 so they transferred it in as 1 credit instead. Whatever. lol

    I am 17 credits into the program I prefer. I need to take 3 more science classes, a lifespan psych class, CPR course, and become a CNA before being admitted into the program. This will then complete all of my pre-reqs and will leave me with only nursing course to go which I believe is 38 credits at this school.
    Last edit by Batman24 on Mar 18, '07
  8. by   lovemyjob
    This is one of the best posts I have ever read re: bsn/adn issue. It has stayed on topic and been so informative. Lindarn, I whole heartedly agree with you, and many others who have brought up other great points.

    I see many nurses who became nurses because they could go to work and let work stay at work and have no interest in joining any organization to make it better. They see it as a couple 12 hour shifts a week that brings home a paycheck. I am going to venture out and suggest that thui may be a reason that nurses dont stand up against admin, the state, etc. Many want to work and go home, have a family and a million other obligations and were attracted to nursing because of its wonderful flexibility. I am not in any way bashing those who are this way, only pointing out what I have seen from talking to coworkers. There are many fiesty nurses out there like linda and many others on here who want to take action, but dont recieve the support from those who would rather not put the time and effort into it. I am not so sure they see the benefit... and the need.
  9. by   Kelly_the_Great
    Quote from gerry79
    Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthening nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally
    Hey Gerry...,

    I think a lot of ppl believe the issue of education can be the means by which unification can be achieved. In oher words, if our entry level was "uniform" all ADN, BSN, hell, some even think MSN (lol), then this would lend to more unification of the profession.

    Quote from gerry79
    .. is there not strenght in numbers?
    In theory, definetly, there is strength in numbers. Unfortunately, when we are divided...no...

    ETA: BTW, not that it matters but I'm a proponent of "eventual" attainment of BSN. I believe we all come from different perspectives (socioeconomic, family dynamic, etc.) in our lives and our choices and opportunities are affected by them. However, I would like to see a system that would provide the allowance of BSN realization for all practicing nurses that we may all get the credit we deserve. jmo
    Last edit by Kelly_the_Great on Mar 19, '07
  10. by   gerry79
    Quote from Kelly_the_Great
    Hey Gerry...,

    I think a lot of ppl believe the issue of education can be the means by which unification can be achieved. In oher words, if our entry level was "uniform" all ADN, BSN, hell, some even think MSN (lol), then this would lend to more unification of the profession.



    In theory, definetly, there is strength in numbers. Unfortunately, when we are divided...no...

    ETA: BTW, not that it matters but I'm a proponent of "eventual" attainment of BSN. I believe we all come from different perspectives (socioeconomic, family dynamic, etc.) in our lives and our choices and opportunities are affected by them. However, I would like to see a system that would provide the allowance of BSN realization for all practicing nurses that we may all get the credit we deserve. jmo

    Yes Kelly I do agree with you as knowledge is power. It would be nice to see unification start somewhere.....anywhere...Then nurses would become a powerful force within the work place. Imagine two million unified voices speaking as one! What a force we would be within the work place. But as long as we are kept blissfully ignorant, fearful, and disorganized we will always be divided and conquered.
    Last edit by gerry79 on Mar 19, '07
  11. by   lindarn
    Quote from gerry79
    In my area RN's make as much as OT's, and more than Dietician's, and LICSW's (Masters educated). The starting salary for a new grad in Boston is $62,000 per year. I have quite a few friends who are teachers, social workers, and police officers who do not make what a new grad nurse makes. Dental Hygienist, who also have dual professional entry, start at $65,000 per year and seem to coexist just fine. I am all for advanced education and professional respect, but are we as nurses really that bad off? Would more education equate to more respect? From what I have read on this website, MD's dont respect NP's who are highly educated, CRNA's are at times not well received by anesthesioloigist, and to many lay persons a nurse is a nurse weather a Diploma, ADN, BSN, or MSN graduate. Nursing represents the largest faction of health care workers yet it seems wield the least amount of power. It reminds me of old South Africa (for lack of a better analogy) where the few ruled the many for years because the many were slow to unify. Maybe unification should be the primary focus for strengthening nursing instead of in fighting and arguing over an issue (education) that may yield little returns and can be fixed internally.. is there not strenght in numbers? Is the sky indeed falling on the nursing profession? Some whow I dont thinks so, but only time will tell I guess........Just my .02 cents
    Maybe where you live Pts, OTs, earn as much, or the same as RNs. But in most of the country, they most certainly do earn more than RNs. Here in low paying, service industry Spokane, PTs and OTs earn TWICE WHAT RNS MAKE, $80- 100,000 a year. Nurses here make about $32 an hour. That comes in at less than $50,000 a year.

    Teachers may not earn a whole lot more than RNs, but teachers have great benefits, and retirements, that most RNs can only dream of. I cannot quote you what cops make, but again, they are state/city employees and have great benefits and pensions. Dental Hygienists is not a dual professional entry profession. Dental Assistants are a 2 year commmunity college program, Hygienists are a four year program. They are not interchangeable with Dental Hygienists.

    If MDs don't respect CRNAs and Nurse Practitioners, it has more to do with control, and the business that they perceive they are losing to them. What better way to keep the upper spot on the food chain, but to look down publically on them and maintain control over their scope of practice. It has more to do with CRNAs and Nurse Practioners allowing the disrespect, than anything else.

    The publics' confusion about the role of the nurse is due to the different levels of our education, that confuses us, as well as the public. Nurses are not taught how to promote themselves, and their practice, and we do a poor job of conveying to the public how and why we are valuable to them. This is mainly caused by nurses who have rejected union representation, and live in "right to work (for less), states", where you can be fired for anything, including writing letters to the editor, educating the public about what is going on in health care in their community. This is why the public is not in an uproar about the poor care in hospitals. They think that it is caused by all of the lazy nurse who just sit in the nurses station talking on the phone and playing on the computer. And of course, the hospital just feeds into this misperception with the "customer service" babble.

    WE have caused the confusion about our profession. WE have no one to blame but ourselves. WE continue to insist on being the the lowest educated group of health care professionals, and WE pay for it with our low pay, and lack of professional recognition, and control.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Mar 19, '07 : Reason: spelling/grammer
  12. by   gerry79
    Quote from lindarn
    Maybe where you live Pts, OTs, earn as much, or the same as RNs. But in most of the country, they most certainly do earn more than RNs. Here in low paying, service industry Spokane, PTs and OTs earn TWICE WHAT RNS MAKE, $80- 100,000 a year. Nurses here make about $32 an hour. That comes in at less than $50,000 a year.

    Teachers may not earn a whole lot more than RNs, but teachers have great benefits, and retirements, that most RNs can only dream of. I cannot quote you what cops make, but again, they are state/city employees and have great benefits and pensions. Dental Hygienists is not a dual professional entry profession. Dental Assistants are a 2 year commmunity college program, Hygienists are a four year program. They are not interchangeable with Dental Hygienists.

    If MDs don't respect CRNAs and Nurse Practitioners, it has more to do with control, and the business that they perceive they are losing to them. What better way to keep the upper spot on the food chain, but to look down publically on them and maintain control over their scope of practice. It has more to do with CRNAs and Nurse Practioners allowing the disrespect, than anything else.

    The publics' confusion about the role of the nurse is due to the different levels of our education, that confuses us, as well as the public. Nurses are not taught how to promote themselves, and their practice, and we do a poor job of conveying to the public how and why we are valuable to them. This is mainly caused by nurses who have rejected union representation, and live in "right to work (for less), states", where you can be fired for anything, including writing letters to the editor, educating the public about what is going on in health care in their community. This is why the public is not in an uproar about the poor care in hospitals. They think that it is caused by all of the lazy nurse who just sit in the nurses station talking on the phone and playing on the computer. And of course, the hospital just feeds into this misperception with the "customer service" babble.

    WE have caused the confusion about our profession. WE have no one to blame but ourselves. WE continue to insist on being the the lowest educated group of health care professionals, and WE pay for it with our low pay, and lack of professional recognition, and control.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington

    Lindarn I do agree with you, education is important I was just stating the salaries of the various occupations in my area. Also there is a dual entry for dental hygienist in my area. There are two associate degree programs and one bachelor program. A bit of the beaten path but there are still several associate degree program for PA's (Miami Dade Community College, Stanford University School of Medicine, Riverside County Community College) and quite a few bachelor programs. And $32/hr comes out to be $66,000 per year before taxes based on a 40 hr work week times 52 weeks (where I am employed we are paid weekly). I live in a very high cost area and no OT or PT make any where near $100,000 per year in the hospital setting. And speaking to an OT and PT at this moment as I type this, I am told very few make more than $90,000 a year. Maybe they are in high demand in your neck of the woods.

    As I mentioned earlier, I do agree that education is important but is it education alone that will enable nurses to get the respect that they deserve? We can all hold MSN's but until we unify in other areas also, we would only be considered educated fools in the eyes of management who will continously be dived and conquired.
  13. by   juan de la cruz
    I too would like to see the day when nursing has a uniform degree requirement for entry to practice. Realistically, I am not sure we can make this happen since majority of nursing programs are still based in community colleges and universities are not willing to allow these community colleges to award a bachelor's degree. The solution to this is to offer differential pay to BSN graduates to offer an incentive to pursue RN-BSN. There are many RN-BSN programs and at least in my state, there is no wait list in these programs. Many hospitals also sponsor in-house programs through partnerships with local universities. However, unless there is a monetary incentive to pursue a BSN, there will be little interest in these RN-BSN programs.

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