NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - Page 59Register Today!
- Feb 9, '07 by want2scubaQuote from GromitI agree with you 100 percent. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree, so I already have all my prerequisites completed except the science classes.I know the CC I went to sure didn't have any 'cakewalk' courses. The ENTIRE ADN Program was grueling. We worked our tails off -doubly so when you considder that with few exceptions, we all had regular full-time jobs as well. Each section of the program was filled with research, each section tested not only the current info, but the previous stuff as well (anything was fair game, so you didn't 'get soft' on things you had already passed) -we had papers, live presentations to perform, and the usual stuff that all programs have (the clinicals -both in school practicals as well as hospital-based).
Now, my CC was considdered one of the more difficult ones, but I don't know of anyone who claims their ADN program was easy, or that they had time to catnap. Thats just plain insulting, and reeks of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
I graduated college in 1986. My college had a very reputable nursing school. I wasn't interested in much back then other than taking the easy way out. Writing always came easy to me. I avoided all of the science classes I could.
Now at 41, I am returning to school in hopes of becoming a RN. There was one post that said that in addition to taking all of the prerequitsites for a Bachelor's degree, they have two years of full time nursing school.
I am attending a very tough CC. I've had all of those basic prerequisites. The only difference is BEFORE we can be accepted into nursing school,(which is very competitive at my school) we have to have COMPLETED chemistry, biology, microbiology, anatomy and physiology I and II with an extremely high GPA to even have a chance of getting of getting in. We also have to take the pre-admission test for nursing (NLN). If we have a high GPA, and do extremely well on the NLN, we may get into nursing school.
After that, it is two years of full time nursing school. I do not see how that would make graduating nurses from our school less equipped for nursing.
In fact, I mentioned in a previous post. A friend of mine, who has an ADN from my CC, is the manager of the Oncology/Pallative care (sp?) department at the very prestigious Northwestern Hospital in Chicago.
She is working toward her BSN, not because she needs it to be a manager. She wants to be a NP. She loves her job, and is very well respected.
- Feb 9, '07 by bladyGet over people and get educated! Education is for your own upbuilding. If that becomes law and you don't live in NY it would not affect you until your state starts following suit because you know its only going to be a matter of time.
Compare different states like MA vs NY for reciprocity (FYI to the person who wanted to know)
I'll repeat..other professions require much higher standard of education - they don't have a shortage and they get paid well.
Nursing is more than pushing meds and wound care. Our profession should not have to be of NP status to gain respect. Did anyone consider why we have a shortage in faculty.Last edit by blady on Feb 9, '07
- Feb 9, '07 by ZASHAGALKAQuote from bladyWe have a shortage of nursing instructors because their salaries are set in line with their academic peers, and as a result, ADN nurses can outearn MSN instructors with just a few yrs experience and just a few shifts of overtime.Did anyone consider why we have a shortage in faculty.
The disparity between education and income is why there are so few instructors. BTW, it also happens to be the SAME reason why more ADNs don't go back for their BSN.
It's not a lack of education but a lack of reward for it. If anything, this speaks volumes about where the transition to BSN is heading if employers have their way: higher standards, same level of pay and respect.
This is the old 'chicken and the egg' game: which came first, higher salaries or BSN? My take, without the incentive of higher salary, you will not get a 'breakout' to BSN. It's easy to claim that moving to BSN will result in increased salary. Reality, for too many, points otherwise.
Timothy.Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 9, '07
- Feb 9, '07 by spydercadeti have always loved these "discussions" it pits us against one another and we start to show our true colors. nurses will no longer be needed to care for patients; but we are professionals!!! we are "equal" to physicians and equality is sameness, right??? we'll show them!!!
all the while patient care goes down, the nursing shortage goes up and we continue to argue. the ama is already starting to put our house in order for us and if we don't get it together soon we won't even have a say in what our house looks like. i love being a nurse, i started with a diploma and am now working towards a master's degree, but that's by my choice. by forcing us all to get bachelor's degrees and then on to advanced degrees, we stop doing what nurses do and what we all went into nursing for Ė to take care of the patient. i believe physicians are tired of their patients not being taken care of; med's not on time, dressings not being done, etc...so what have they done already??? just look, licensure has taken such a structured role that a doctor needs to hire a rn to help in their offices, but what doctor can really afford that? so now we have medical assistants, they can do everything, if not more, that a rn can do. they just need to have the doctor on the premises. but a physician can hire a ma at $12-15/hr vs. a rn at $30/hr. just look a little further to surgical techs and what's on the horizon??? medication techs. when will nursing realize what is going on here? the ama is taking care of our business and we don't even know it.
is anyone out there who sees what i see??? does anyone know what to do??? i teach nursing right now and want to know if i am doing it in vain or will they really have jobs and will those jobs be as nurses, or will they be something completely different???
- Feb 9, '07 by subeeQuote from ZASHAGALKANew York does not have reciprocity with any other state. Where one went to school has nothing to do with reciprocity. I live fifteen minutes to another state (abutting New York) and it took five months to get a license from that state.The ncsbn has a list of states with reciprocity agreements.Name one.
This above statement just isn't true.
Also, as has been pointed out, this issue died without a vote in the LAST NY legislature. It was not even considered a viable enough option to entertain debate.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, there is no significant income gap between ADN and BSN. It's a nice thought, but it doesn't translate to reality.
IF there were a real wage difference, this wouldn't be a debate at all. As more nurses gravitated towards that extra pay, both current nurses and potential nurses would make their choices accordingly with the result being that nursing would skew towards BSN on its own.
Most boards of nursing include a range of members, from lay public, other healthcare professionals and a range of qualifications of nurses to include those with ADNs. Indeed, on most boards, there are an equal range of representation across the nursing spectrum: there is no more representation for one group over the others.
IN addition, most certifications open to BSNs are open to ADNs.
Name a State that NY doesn't have reciprocity with. Some states refuse reciprocity for certain types of degrees, but that doesn't extend to NLN approved ADN and BSN programs.
In fact, the NY Nursing Commissioner's office specifically lists any course of professional nursing approved by their home State BONs as meeting the educational requirement for NY:
Registered professional nursing. To meet the professional education requirement, the applicant shall have graduated from:
"a program in nursing approved by the licensing authority in another state, territory or possession of the United States as preparation for practice as a registered professional nurse;"
- Feb 10, '07 by markdanurseAll right my fellow professionals. Are we getting caught up in the whole "more education means more respect and more professionalism" thing all over again? I have worked side by side with physicians for years...11 to be exact. And I have yet to have a physician, or even a patient ask me, "Are you a diploma, ADN, or BSN nurse?" Why? Because it does not matter. We all pass the same licensing exams, we all pretty much learn the same material minus some community health and management courses, and we ALL have the same scope of practice as an RN. So NO, more education does not equal more respect and professionalism. Please stop with this argument...it is nothing more than a logical fallacy.
In fact, education has become a joke. A doctorate degree is needed to become a physical tharapist or a pharmacist? Please. These two professions have such a narrow and limited scope of practice that it is almost ridiculous. When I worked as a pharmacy technician, I did the pharmacist's work for him. (i.e. filled the scripts, called physicians for prescription refills, mixed IV medications in piggybacks and 1 liter bags of IV solutions, alerted him to level 3 or higher drug interactions, and much more. He would come by, double check my work, and sign off on the labels.) The only things I could not do was counsel a patient on how to take medications, and I could not accept a new order from a physician. I made $24,000 a year, he made $90,000+ a year. Some of the smartest pharmacists I have met are those with the old B.Pharm (bachelor of science in pharmacy) degrees. Oh, but all pharmacists do the exact same job regardless of their degree. Yet, no one is forcing those with the bachelor's in pharmacy degree to go back to school for the Pharm.D. degree. See my point here? On orthopedic rehab units, I worked with physical therapists all day long. I also worked with associate degree trained physical therapy assistants. Yet, you couldn't tell the two apart when they were working with their patients. Having friends who are PTA's, they explained they can do everything a PT can do except initiate a plan of care, do the initial assessment, and cannot do wound debridement. Interesting that you would need a doctorate degree to do those three extra skills. Yet I have worked with bachelor degreed physical therapists and no one forced them to go back to school for their DPT degree. Why? Well, it's a neat concept called grandfathering. Those that have been practicing for years do not need the same level of knowledge as the new grad just entering the profession. I do not wish to be forced into a degree when I do not wish to go into more debt for school. Pay me an extra $4.00 an hour for my BSN, and I'll go back to school. Otherwise, the continuing education I constantly go through in my nursing position, as well as my specialty nursing certification, and the CE's I get through nursing journals more than prepare me to give safe care to my patients at the bedside.
Then we have my favorite issue... the 4 year, post BSN, doctorate of nursing practice (DNP or DrNP) requirement for all entry level advanced practice nurses (i.e. CNM, NP, CRNA, CNS). Yes folks, in the AACN position statement, by the year 2015, all programs will offer the DNP instead of the MSN degree for entry into practice. And why is that? Well, research has shown that NP's at the current MSN level are more than competent and capable of achieving outcomes the same as, and even better than their physician counterparts (i.e. as written in JAMA). It's because the profession thinks it will achieve more respect and professional recognition because it will offer a doctorate degree to its clinicians. Yet, having spoken to many physicians about this, most of them laugh and ask, "Why do you need that? Most NP's do just fine at the current master degree level? Why go through just as much didactic as a physician only to make less money and have a scope of practice that still does not parallel a physician. (i.e. NP's still do not do surgeries, and still cannot do 100% of what a family physician can do) Why not just go to medical school?" Yet, NP's will be grandfathered in regardless of their previous educational level (yes, we have diploma,ADN, and BSN advanced practice nurses still practicing out there from before the time of the MSN hooplah...none of them were forced to get their MSN degrees.)
Well, because we like to follow logical fallacies such as "more is better" and "if we have a doctorate degree, physicians and patients will respect us more", and "physicians will have to take us seriously then", etc.
Welcome to the big expensive joke...more education = more respect/professionalism.
- Feb 10, '07 by dansdollThe option to pursue the BSN is available to any nurse who chooses to follow this path (see the advertisers on this page for distance, part time and scholarship program information). Any self-respecting nurse will use the educational credits to fulfill CE requirements to maintain licensure and not complain so about upgrading their education to a minimal professional standard. I have worked my way up from CNA to LPN to AS to BSN to NP. I know how hard, and expensive, it can be, especially as the sole income provider for my family, but I also know how rewarding it is to be the best. Without additional education a provider not only has a lack of knowledge and an ignorance of that lack of knowledge, but enough experience to feel they donít need the extra knowledge provided by formal education. If experience is all that is needed to be a nurse, why not promote the CNA who has 20 years of service to the RN position? Higher educational standards will promote the professional s a whole and bring nurses out of the service image held by most laypeople and into the new century as professionals instead of laborers.
- Feb 10, '07 by dansdollThe fact that many nurses who hold higher degrees are the ones who promote higher education, may be the point in fact. The more education a nurse has the more that nurse realizes how much was missing in their practice at the lower level........ just food for thought
- Feb 10, '07 by kstecReading this forum made me very irritated. For you that have your BSN, or Masters, good for you. One you either were fortunate enough to go after high school, or you sacrificed alot of family time to do so. I on the other hand was not able to go to college after high school, and I was only willing to sacrifice my family for 1 year to the the LPN. I would definitely hope that none of the ADN get demoted down to the lowest form of a nurse, a LPN, that would just be awful. I'm very proud of my accomplishment of being a LPN. I don't think I'm better than anyone, and none of you are better than me. I get really tired of the hierarchy of nursing. Of course your going to have more book knowledge the longer you go to school but that does not dismiss that the nurses with less education are any less important in what they do. I went into nursing to take care of people not impress others or put a bunch of letters after my name. Eventually if they decide for all nurses to get the BSN, that would be fine, but in the interim lets not get on our high horses and belittle others who do not. Oh and by the way if I wanted my BSN or Masters it would be mine, but at this point in my life I work part time as a LPN and my family if my #1 priority not the letters after my name.
- Feb 11, '07 by ZASHAGALKAQuote from subeeOk, maybe we have a minor disagreement over terminology. So, let me clarify:New York does not have reciprocity with any other state. Where one went to school has nothing to do with reciprocity. I live fifteen minutes to another state (abutting New York) and it took five months to get a license from that state.The ncsbn has a list of states with reciprocity agreements.
If by reciprocity you mean that one license can work in another state, that is a reference to the multi-state compact, of which NY is not apart. Agreed.
However, the OP on this particular topic made mention of NY being picky about the education available in other states and I interpreted that comment to be mean that NY doesn't honor RN licenses from some states due to education. The correct term there is endorsement. NY doesn't refuse endorsements from other states, even if they take forever to process them.
The OP on this topic was using the term 'reciprocity' in reference to NY not recognizing the educational programs of other states. I also incorrectly used the term, in her same context, and refuted it with a statement from the Commissioner's office that said the NY recognizes the RN educational pathway of any other State so long as THAT State's BON recognizes the education.
Now, NY DOES require a few targeted CEUs to obtain license by endorsement, but that is not the same as rejecting the education offered in other states.
To sum, up, using correct terminology: NY DOES allow licensure by endorsement, thereby validating the educational processes of other States. There is nothing about NY's education of nurses that leads it to insist that others states provide inferior education.
Timothy.Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 11, '07