NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 49

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   Jami_Jared
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Your error in logic is that nursing did not and hasn't 'lowered' its standards due to a shortage. ADN nursing represented, at the time, a vast improvement in the quality of nursing education. It was a bridge to college level prep, a bridge that BSN could not provide on its own because there was simply no incentive to attain such a high degree for what amounted to an apprenticeship.

    At the time of ADN creation, only educators were seeking BSN. No bedside nurse sought such a degree because it was fundamentally unnecessary to the work being required.

    ADN bridged the gap, and as a result, nursing today is a college level prep career. Instead of respecting our contributions and path to advancement, today's BSN proponents want to dismiss the large amount of effort that was required to move nursing to where it is today: to a career where seeking a bach degree is widely considered an acceptable career pathway. You can thank ADN nursing for that transition.

    Where we go from here is a new story for a new day. But, if you think you can dismiss the contributions that got us this far, then it's a no-brainer that the result is going to be 'bickering'. At fundamental issue is the fact that this debate is an academic discussion that carries little weight in the real trenches of nursing.

    Your ADN peers perform smartly and professionally in those trenches. Your arguments regarding professionalism carries so little weight because those in the trenches know full well that 'minimum entry to practice' is of little import to professionals that have functioned in nursing for years. I can work circles around a new BSN and that is not a function of my degree but of my 14 yrs of nursing experience.

    The bottom line is this, the quicker you are to dismiss MY contributions to nursing, the quicker those like me will be to dismiss your arguments for advancement. Lost in translation is all the rationales for why your ideas are worthwhile to pursue. You lost me and others like me when you denigrate those considerable contributions.

    You talk about unity, but what you really mean is that you desire the debate to be silenced by fiat. You don't mean actually taking a unified stand with your peers because your very language shows disrepect to your peers. I'll agree with you on one thing, this debate will never move forward without unity of purpose. But, to attain that unity, you will have to embrace your peers and conceive a pathway that moves not just this issue along, but each of us with it.

    It's a good thing to conceive where to go from here. Thanks to ADN nursing, we can conceive the goal of college level prep that is the fruit of that pathway. Far from 'lowering' the standards of nursing, ADN programs elevated us to the point where we can consider this discussion.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Timothy,

    Your words are eloquent and I respect your opinion. But you also need to respect mine and the need to have a unified minimum entry level requirement for nursing. I wonder where you are getting your stats from regarding the population of nurses. I would be interested in reviewing the websites for the statistics. In ND we are dominated by BSN's and I have never had a ADN from MN or SD or MT run circles around me. That shows your disrespect for your peers who hold a higher education than you have. I work seamlessly with all healthcare employees from the CNA, to the ward clerk, LPN all the way up the the Dr. I have worked in the real trenches of the nursing world for 5 years as a RN and for 6 years when I was a CNA. I have experience and I see the difference daily. The ADN programs that we are used to are from MTCTC - Moorhead, MN and there is a lack of respect for this program. The clinicals for OB consist of one visit to a WIC clinic, the clinicals in the ICU consist of one day of observation. They have many clinicals on the Med/surg unit but these students aren't allowed to practice of have their clinicals in any of the hospitals in Fargo - Meritcare or Innovis - (only at an LPN they can) so the only place they have "practiced" nursing is at the VA hospital and clinic settings. Now is the well roundedness you are talking about. Is this where the standards are so highly set by "ALL" ASN/ADN programs. You just can't generalize because everywhere isn't the same. So this affects all the trenches of nursing. I'm sure there are great ASN/ ADN programs across the country. We just aren't seeing that in the midwest areas.

    Referring back to the the beginnings of nursing. Most nurses when through hospital based nursing programs that were pretty much their entire life. It was considered a women's profession and they lived in nursing quarters and ate, drank and slept nursing. From this the diploma nurse was developed. I understand that but technology and times are changing and education is the key. I agree with many of the quotes and notes from others who also see that this is the time to make a change and it can be done. We just have to come together and have a plan.

    I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. Most ADN/ASN RN's eventually want to pursue their BSN anyway for different job opportunities or advancement into better hours. I just want to keep our wages competitive and want our profession to be seen as Professional.
  2. by   teeituptom
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    Timothy,



    I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. Most ADN/ASN RN's eventually want to pursue their BSN anyway for different job opportunities or advancement into better hours. I just want to keep our wages competitive and want our profession to be seen as Professional.
    Sounds very disrespectfull as can be to me. One your are assuming AD/AS RN will continue on to a BSN. That certainly isnt necessarily true. You say AD/AS RNs keep RNs from having competitive wages. You Say AD/AS RNs cause nurses to be seen less as professionals. Everything you say sounds very disrespectfull.
    I have no desire to be a BSN, now or ever. And when you consider I hit 6 figures in my paycheck every year, why would I want to. All it would do is interfere with my time on the golf courses. I have contributed to the professionalism of nursing for 3 decades now.
  3. by   tridil2000
    Quote from teeituptom
    Sounds very disrespectfull as can be to me. One your are assuming AD/AS RN will continue on to a BSN. That certainly isnt necessarily true. You say AD/AS RNs keep RNs from having competitive wages. You Say AD/AS RNs cause nurses to be seen less as professionals. Everything you say sounds very disrespectfull.
    I have no desire to be a BSN, now or ever. And when you consider I hit 6 figures in my paycheck every year, why would I want to. All it would do is interfere with my time on the golf courses. I have contributed to the professionalism of nursing for 3 decades now.

    but see, it's not about how much *YOU* make, it has to do with *our* future.

    there was a time when mandating the diploma met resistance too. nurses back then said, "who needs a diploma to clean and feed people?"

    you sound like them. however, if the diploma, and eventually the associates, was not PUSHED through against that resisitance, YOU would not be where you are today.... obviously enjoying your 6 figures.

    we need to grow into the 21st century, and we are sadly lacking as a group who demands and wants respect, but at the same time, the least educated.
  4. by   Jami_Jared
    Quote from teeituptom
    Sounds very disrespectfull as can be to me. One your are assuming AD/AS RN will continue on to a BSN. That certainly isnt necessarily true. You say AD/AS RNs keep RNs from having competitive wages. You Say AD/AS RNs cause nurses to be seen less as professionals. Everything you say sounds very disrespectfull.
    I have no desire to be a BSN, now or ever. And when you consider I hit 6 figures in my paycheck every year, why would I want to. All it would do is interfere with my time on the golf courses. I have contributed to the professionalism of nursing for 3 decades now.
    Tee It Up Tom ---

    I read in the thread that most of the nurses on here say that they eventually would like to go on for further education. I didn't just make that up. Its written all over the forums. The only reason that you can enjoy the 6 figure income you have is because of the Bachelor's prepared nurses that are a key part of the nursing profession. Why do you think that the hospitals/nursing homes/surgery centers all push for the education component and for nurses to continue their education?

    By the way ND and a few other states have talks through the legislature to have titles on nursing badges that read ASN/ADN - Technical Nurse .....RN and then BSN/BAN - Professional Nurse - RN. So its not just something that I am creating my self it is in many discussions nationwide to either make it known different levels of education or to start mandating a unified entry level Bachelors degree. I'm sorry if you don't like it but thats just the way it is. I don't say that ADN/ASN - RN's don't have professionalism ....I think they do in every way. But an associates or diploma degree is not a Professional degree it is considered a technical degree. The standards state that a bachelors degree in the lowest level that you can obtain a Professional degree. It is a matter of perception on how you interpret the use of words.
  5. by   teeituptom
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    Tee It Up Tom ---

    I read in the thread that most of the nurses on here say that they eventually would like to go on for further education. I didn't just make that up. Its written all over the forums. The only reason that you can enjoy the 6 figure income you have is because of the Bachelor's prepared nurses that are a key part of the nursing profession. Why do you think that the hospitals/nursing homes/surgery centers all push for the education component and for nurses to continue their education?

    By the way ND and a few other states have talks through the legislature to have titles on nursing badges that read ASN/ADN - Technical Nurse .....RN and then BSN/BAN - Professional Nurse - RN. So its not just something that I am creating my self it is in many discussions nationwide to either make it known different levels of education or to start mandating a unified entry level Bachelors degree. I'm sorry if you don't like it but thats just the way it is. I don't say that ADN/ASN - RN's don't have professionalism ....I think they do in every way. But an associates or diploma degree is not a Professional degree it is considered a technical degree. The standards state that a bachelors degree in the lowest level that you can obtain a Professional degree. It is a matter of perception on how you interpret the use of words.
    1. It is NOT a matter of perception on how you interpret the use of words.
    Its is what you are actually stating.

    2. The standards state- What are these standards named, and where are these standards located at, and who wrote theses standards. Probably not a bedside nurse. More likely some pompous mom bedside nurse or someone not even connected with pt care. I know administration said it.

    3. After more than 30 years of being in this profession I am now relegated by young people who havent been there, who havent fought the fight for over 30 years, who been there and seen what I have seen for over 30 years, and your are now delegating me to being a technician.

    4. Yes pay rates are up now, yes benefits are better, yes conditions are better. I started off at 6.50 a hours. Yes every thing is better now. And young nurses who were in diapers back when I started are saying " Im sorry if you dont like it, thats the way it is"

    5.I have been a Corpsman 1968 to 1973 with the fleet marine Forces.

    I have been been an Surgical Nurse

    I have been an Ob/Gyn Nurse

    I have been an ICU/CCU nurse

    I am an ER Nurse

    I have been everything from a bedside nurse to an Department head

    And I did it when we didnt need BS nurses, the way I see it in 10 years the MS nuses will be doing all this to the BS nurses, turnabout is fair play.
  6. by   little_lost_bear
    Just an added thought, If they can't get enough nurses now, what makes them think that by forcing people to do a university degree will solve anything. I know here in Australia there is no such thing as an ADN, everyone had a degree, for what, i do the same thing that i did as an LPN/LVN or EEN here in Australia as i do as an RN-BSN with added responsibility. We often hear that there is a doctors shortage, but what about nurses, if they paid better and treated nurses better, than maybe we could get more nurses.

    I often hear new grads say they didn't go to university to wipe backsides or to feed patients. Things need to get better for all nurses.

    Mary RN-BSN
  7. by   Gromit
    Jami_Jared -I find it a bit insulting that you keep expressing the belief that we must attain BSN before we can be viewed as 'professionals'.
    Hate to break your egg shells, but I AM a professional. This is NOT a blue-collar job, and just any tom-dick-or harry off the street cannot come in, apply and do the job. We are regulated under the department of professional regulations. I get my dander up a bit when 'ivory tower' nitwits decide to prclaim from on high that to be 'unified' we must all be like THEY are or aspired to be. Good for you. Its not for everybody. You claim to desire unity, but your very attitude is one of the main reasons for the disunity. I'm not sure WHO it is you wish to get 'respect' from, but doctors aren't going to have any more respect for you because you have a bachelors, and the patients won't care one way or the other so long as they get their meds when they want them, and keep them happy -the general public couldn't care less about you until they need you -and few enough of them understand what is involved in becoming a nurse anyway (nor do they care enough to find out) so you really aren't going to impress THEM no matter how many letters follow your name. I doubt one in a dozzen could tell the difference between an ADN and BSN -and I doubt fewer than that would care.
    Hmm. Perhaps you believe the folks who run the hospital will care? I doubt it, seeing as how bedside BSNs make the same (or very little more) as beside ADNs. If they REALLY "respected" your idea of what makes a "professional" then there would be something called "incentives" -and there are precious few -that being the case, why should many of us older characters go back to school again, to get that higher degree?
    Personally, I couldn't care less if the only thing a Bachelors will get me is some "reverence" in their voice. Reverence doesn't pay the bills, and I have no desire to go into teaching, and not particularly crazy about playing 'armchair nurse' (aka "manager")
  8. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    The only reason that you can enjoy the 6 figure income you have is because of the Bachelor's prepared nurses that are a key part of the nursing profession.
    I wonder where this belief of yours came from? You really believe that the only reason for the higher income of nurses today is because of the minority of BSNs out there in the mix?

    Supply vs Demand is what has increased the wages of nurses, along with a whole lot of work on the part of non-BSN-prepared nurses. You shouldn't ever forget it, although it appears as if you already have, or just never learned this to be the case.

    The increases of salary we've all enjoyed is not because of the minority percentage of BSN grads. If in the last decade or so the market had been flooded with all BSNs, and there were plenty of nurses for every vacancy, do you believe such salaries would exist? I don't. There are plenty of highly-educated people in other fields who can't earn squat because there simply isn't a demand for their knowledge or services.

    I owe my very nice paycheck to the fact that the hospitals are screaming for nursing help: ADN, Diploma, BSN....they frankly don't care a whit, as long as 'RN' is after the applicant's name.

    In one breath you say that the existence of ADNs is the reason that the nursing profession is being brought down, and in the next you assert that ADN nurses owe their good salaries to BSNs merely because there ARE BSNs. Rather like saying that ADN nurses are along for the ride in the wake of BSNs bringing up salaries all on their own. And rather insulting to every nurse, in my opinion.
  9. by   Tweety
    RNsRWe, I agree. We've gotten several "market adjustments" over the years because salaries at our competetor's have gone up and our hospital needed to keep up because nurses were quitting for those higher salaries. More positions than nurses equals competetive salaries.

    If a Bachelor's degree is all that's required for high salaries, why are accellerated programs so popular with persons in other fields? I precept these students on Wednesdays and Thursdays and they all say the same thing - there aren't enough jobs in their degree and they aren't making good money. (Their school has a preceptor system, rather than a traditional clinical setting with an instructor and a large group of students).
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Jami; the math does not support your theory. The fact is, a very large proportion of RNs hold associate's degrees, in some places,as many as 70% plus. That does not make BSN nurses "key" to professional nursing. But I do think it's a standard we can/should aspire to as professional registered nurses. Just like world peace; I would LOVE to see nurses make peace with each others' educational paths and grow up----there are some really big fish to fry for us-----that we are ignoring some pretty critical issues due to this petty infighting is sad to me.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Mar 5, '07
  11. by   Gromit
    There can be NO peace while Kirk LIVES!.
    oops, wrong movie!
    Peace through superior firepower!
    oops, wrong slogan.

    It IS curious that the one who is whining about unity is also the one who is blaming the disunity on others for not attaining the levels that the one person believes we all should be at. MOST of the rest of us ADNs are quite happy to just be RNs, and do our jobs.
    Nothing wrong with higher education -but it really isn't for everybody. I do plan to get my bachelors one day, and a desk job after that -not in a hospital setting.
    For now, I'm a competent nurse (RN) and I work well with others. High-acuity patients are interesting and a busy shift goes by quicker than a boring shift.
    It does seem that the few unhappy BSNs are the ones making nearly all of the fuss -the ADNs aren't out there picking on the BSNs (though they are fighting back at the insults FROM the unhappy BSNs) -so if being a BSN is the path to happiness and feelings of 'respect' from whomever you think is 'respecting' you because of the letters behind your name, then why gripe at the rest of us who couldn't care less about what others think -when the call bell tolls, it tolls for thee, and the one on the button side of that call bell doesn't care about your extra letters -they just want their 'needs' met. And quite frankly, there aren't any of these needs that a BSN can fulfill any better than an ADN -and more often than not, a trained monkey could actually do a lot of it!
    -time to go empty a bedpan.
  12. by   madascanbeRNtobe
    Hi all

    just my two cents.

    Here in Ontario, where BSN is required, Diploma RNs have been grandfathered. They dont need to get BSN within any amount of time. Though i think that a lot of those that had 2-3 years experience or less when the change occurred are choosing to, probably because they feel a little vulnerable.

    Those with more experience, well their years of experience is worth a lot more than having a BSN IMO.


    I think that the 4 years BSN nursing programs here are somewhat more regulated. My university begins clinicals in 1st semester of 1st year. Most do in 1st or 2nd semester. Along with this we have nursing courses and clinicals from year 1 to year 4. Im hearing a lot of universities in states are purely liberal courses first two years. This might be excellent for some students, but others might prefer 4 years.

    Most universities here run on a 20 credits to graduate system, where a 1/2 credit is designated a 1 semester course. For me 17.5 credits are nursing credits, and what you guys would call nursing pre-reqs.


    If any state mandated BSN only, a good thing might be to create a
    standard for the BSN program.

    As to those that are LPNs, 2 year programs for them still exist here., as well as jobs. Recently a few hospitals in Southern Ont. have gone RN only. However, its probably not a direct result of the BSN mandate. LPNs though are getting jobs where they are not being used to thier full potential i have seen.

    ALso for those that are in more rural settings, many community colleges have partnered with universities, so the students can do thier first two years in thier home town addressing the issue of accessibility.

    Its hard to say, if any State mandated BSN only, whether the same results would occur or not. But im sure they would look at what worked and didnt work here.

    Recently, other provinces have also gone BSN only

    CrazyZanyMad
  13. by   scholar
    Quote from Gromit
    Jami_Jared -I find it a bit insulting that you keep expressing the belief that we must attain BSN before we can be viewed as 'professionals'.
    Hate to break your egg shells, but I AM a professional. This is NOT a blue-collar job, and just any tom-dick-or harry off the street cannot come in, apply and do the job.
    But Tom-Dick-& Harry are only 2 years from being able to do so.

    Im just playing, Lol. This is so crazy to me. Coming from a patients point of view I would want the nurse who is passionate, competent, and more experienced. I wouldnt ask for an adn or bsn. For the BSNs just be happy that you have an advantage, and for the adns just feel lucky to make more than average bear off of a associates degree.

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