NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 48

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   Bozzie
    Cause Big Brother has to try it out somewhere. New York State "owns" you, didn't you know that? Look at all the laws they have where the state tells you what to wear, where to smoke, what to eat, how to raise your kids, and on and on..... Why not put requirements on how much education you need to do a job you've been doing just fine in all these years. The congress knows how to live your life better than you, don't they?
  2. by   Jami_Jared
    kudos and right on BOB! I finally have met someone to admire for deep thoughts. A Bachelors is a great way to set high standards for the care of our patients.
  3. by   Jami_Jared
    Quote from Alnamvet
    The good thing, though, is that any bachelor's will do..for those with bachelors in other fields, no problem. Some may want the opportunity to pursue a bachelors in psych, for example, where this major would have more to do with psych nursing than a generic bsn. Social work would be another area for those inclined towards case management. Speaking of management, for those future office weenies, why not a bachelors in business or accounting? Interested in epidimeology? heck, a bachelors in the biological sciences is perfect. Want to be a forensic nurse examiner? Go to John J College of Criminal Justice, and get a bachelors in criminology. As long as it's a bchelors degree that you can use in your practice, I don't think 10 years to obtain it is a burden. Now if you don't plan on staying in NY, your ADN is no different than a bsn...they both accomplish the same thing, except for the addition of community health and an assessment course. Personally, I don't think it will fly, atleast not any time soon. North Dakota just got rid of that requirement.
    North Dakota did change their requirement for requiring a bachelors and it saddens me deeply. Why can't we be proud of higher standards of education? As a nation we promote education and working hard for what you believe in. Why are we downplaying people's time and effort for a higher degree?? I wish people wouldn't say that and ADN is the same as a Bachelor's because it just isn't ...they are two different degrees...plain and simple. It seems like those who choose ADN degrees want to downplay the BSN and why? What is the problem here? If you think they are the same then try to obtain one. The Bachelor's degree covers the entire Bio/pyscho/social areas that a well rounded nurse needs to have to provide total care to the multi dimensional patients and families that we as nurses see on a daily basis. BAN/BSN's don't only get this degree to go into management...this is a myth. Some choose to further their goals and dive into management but not all should be lumped in this category. BSN/BAN should be the minimum standard, like Canada and like New York to promote more educated, well rounded people who devote their passion and life to making people feel better. I wish more states had the balls to stand up and promote higher learning!! kudos to NEW YORK and I wish North Dakota would have upheld its standards. What amazes me is that teachers now have to further their education even more (4-6 years with Bachelors to Masters degrees) to educate our young but as nurses who provide total care and hold lives in their hands can easily and quickly know all they need to know in 2 years??? who are we trying to fool???
  4. by   Jami_Jared
    Quote from RNsRWe
    If you read any of this thread, you should have seen that North Dakota attempted, years ago, to make the minimum entry into nursing a BSN. It failed. Miserably. Also, you'll read in this thread, that New York had some legislative discussions on it, and it too died a miserable death. There IS NOTHING in the works to have BSN a minimum NYS standard.

    I suppose you can always go to the North Carolina State board on this website to ask about NC, but I imagine you'll get similar results.

    I would disagree with you completely. I am from North Dakota and we did not fail miserably during our long campaign of promoting the professionalism of holding a bachelor's degree for nursing. This law was not changed years ago either. It was recently -- 2 years ago to be exact -- changed to allow ADN's to work here. Previously if you held an ADN degree it was required that within 7 years you would need to have a BSN degree. We did not and still do not have large shortages in nursing across our state. Please get your facts straight about state issues. There was no miserable death... ND just felt the constant pressures of being the only state with higher education in mind to encourage and require a BSN/BAN. Many of the nurses here in this state were saddened to lose the requirement. We were proud of what we did and proud to uphold professionalism in the greatest form. Our state still doesn't offer ASN or ADN programs - you need to go to Minnesota or other states to get these degrees. We just opened the doors to allow ADN or ASN's from other states to work in ND if that is what they choose to do. Nurses in ND continue to strive to be BSN/BAN's and that is a great accomplishment and feeling. Why are people so scared of that?
  5. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    I would disagree with you completely. I am from North Dakota and we did not fail miserably during our long campaign of promoting the professionalism of holding a bachelor's degree for nursing. This law was not changed years ago either. It was recently -- 2 years ago to be exact -- changed to allow ADN's to work here. Previously if you held an ADN degree it was required that within 7 years you would need to have a BSN degree. We did not and still do not have large shortages in nursing across our state. Please get your facts straight about state issues.
    My apologies. My information actually came from THIS website; it is an oft-discussed issue. If it was mistaken, so be it.

    As for the reasons why the requirement did fail (or, if you prefer different language, was eliminated), the bottom line is that a requirement to have only BSN or above education levels was implemented and ultimately rescinded.

    As for getting facts straight on state issues, I'd hold off on those "kudos" for NYS: this is an old thread on a long-dropped subject. NYS has no such plans for any such implementation; the original discussion is now obsolete.

    We DO have a shortage on nurses here, or more precisely, a shortage of nurses who are willing to work AS nurses, so this requirement would cause an enormous hardship for hospitals across the State. Most of our RNs are ADNs, and I feel quite comfortable saying that if there WERE to ever be a requirement to have staff RNs complete a BSN in order to continue employment, you'd see a flood of RNs leaving nursing.

    Many choose to go on with education, but NOT get BSNs. Some choose BS or BA in other fields.

    I have no wishes to see people NOT get BSNs if that's what they wish to do. I might do it at some point myself, I'm not quite comfortable with that decision yet. But since I live and work in NY and see how hard it is to keep our hospitals in RNs as it is, it's hard to imagine ANYTHING that restricts hiring or retention being a good thing.
    Last edit by RNsRWe on Feb 28, '07
  6. by   Bozzie
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    North Dakota did change their requirement for requiring a bachelors and it saddens me deeply. Why can't we be proud of higher standards of education? As a nation we promote education and working hard for what you believe in. Why are we downplaying people's time and effort for a higher degree?? I wish people wouldn't say that and ADN is the same as a Bachelor's because it just isn't ...they are two different degrees...plain and simple. It seems like those who choose ADN degrees want to downplay the BSN and why? What is the problem here? If you think they are the same then try to obtain one. The Bachelor's degree covers the entire Bio/pyscho/social areas that a well rounded nurse needs to have to provide total care to the multi dimensional patients and families that we as nurses see on a daily basis. BAN/BSN's don't only get this degree to go into management...this is a myth. Some choose to further their goals and dive into management but not all should be lumped in this category. BSN/BAN should be the minimum standard, like Canada and like New York to promote more educated, well rounded people who devote their passion and life to making people feel better. I wish more states had the balls to stand up and promote higher learning!! kudos to NEW YORK and I wish North Dakota would have upheld its standards. What amazes me is that teachers now have to further their education even more (4-6 years with Bachelors to Masters degrees) to educate our young but as nurses who provide total care and hold lives in their hands can easily and quickly know all they need to know in 2 years??? who are we trying to fool???
    I have absolutely nothing against a person going on to aquire a higher education. And it's a wonderful thing. My concern is for those of us who choose not to for whatever reason that is. We should not be FORCED to do it. My biggest gripe is the cost of tuition vs the fact that BSN's DO NOT recieve higher salaries for obtaining a higher degree and level of education in NY. At least where I come from in NY (Rochester) It rankles me that I would be expected to take out more student loans, impinge on my personal time with my family going to college and studying on my time off work and then get absolutely no monetary compensation for my time, effort and debt. I am closing in on retirement and there is no way I want to rack up additional debt via a student loan that I will have to pay on a fixed income. For the new highschool grads and other young adults who are just starting out the BSN thing is a great idea. They have a long time to work and pay loans, but for us older nurses it is just a financial hardship. That's why I hope we older AAS nurses are grandfathered in, or like I say, I will retire early.
  7. by   RNsRWe
    Quote from Bozzie
    I have absolutely nothing against a person going on to aquire a higher education. And it's a wonderful thing. My concern is for those of us who choose not to for whatever reason that is. We should not be FORCED to do it. My biggest gripe is the cost of tuition vs the fact that BSN's DO NOT recieve higher salaries for obtaining a higher degree and level of education in NY. At least where I come from in NY (Rochester) It rankles me that I would be expected to take out more student loans, impinge on my personal time with my family going to college and studying on my time off work and then get absolutely no monetary compensation for my time, effort and debt. I am closing in on retirement and there is no way I want to rack up additional debt via a student loan that I will have to pay on a fixed income. For the new highschool grads and other young adults who are just starting out the BSN thing is a great idea. They have a long time to work and pay loans, but for us older nurses it is just a financial hardship. That's why I hope we older AAS nurses are grandfathered in, or like I say, I will retire early.

    Don't worry, Bozz....if you look into this further, you'll see that it's already history. Not coming about. Not in the works. Not an issue.

    I figure I've got another 15 years of nursing for sure, maybe 20. I may look into BSN at some point...maybe not.

    Although I'm new into nursing, I already envy your approaching retirement!
  8. by   tridil2000
    Quote from Bozzie
    I have absolutely nothing against a person going on to aquire a higher education. And it's a wonderful thing. My concern is for those of us who choose not to for whatever reason that is. We should not be FORCED to do it. My biggest gripe is the cost of tuition vs the fact that BSN's DO NOT recieve higher salaries for obtaining a higher degree and level of education in NY. At least where I come from in NY (Rochester) It rankles me that I would be expected to take out more student loans, impinge on my personal time with my family going to college and studying on my time off work and then get absolutely no monetary compensation for my time, effort and debt. I am closing in on retirement and there is no way I want to rack up additional debt via a student loan that I will have to pay on a fixed income. For the new highschool grads and other young adults who are just starting out the BSN thing is a great idea. They have a long time to work and pay loans, but for us older nurses it is just a financial hardship. That's why I hope we older AAS nurses are grandfathered in, or like I say, I will retire early.
    i think you should be grandfathered in too.

    however, there was a time at the turn of the last century when nursing didn't require an rn "diploma" or an "associates degree" either. YOU were that generation. the nurses of the early 1900s voiced the exact same things, and there was a shortage then too.

    it's the 21st century. nurses should have a 4 year college degree like every other professional field.
  9. by   Jami_Jared
    Quote from RNsRWe
    My apologies. My information actually came from THIS website; it is an oft-discussed issue. If it was mistaken, so be it.

    As for the reasons why the requirement did fail (or, if you prefer different language, was eliminated), the bottom line is that a requirement to have only BSN or above education levels was implemented and ultimately rescinded.

    As for getting facts straight on state issues, I'd hold off on those "kudos" for NYS: this is an old thread on a long-dropped subject. NYS has no such plans for any such implementation; the original discussion is now obsolete.

    We DO have a shortage on nurses here, or more precisely, a shortage of nurses who are willing to work AS nurses, so this requirement would cause an enormous hardship for hospitals across the State. Most of our RNs are ADNs, and I feel quite comfortable saying that if there WERE to ever be a requirement to have staff RNs complete a BSN in order to continue employment, you'd see a flood of RNs leaving nursing.

    Many choose to go on with education, but NOT get BSNs. Some choose BS or BA in other fields.

    I have no wishes to see people NOT get BSNs if that's what they wish to do. I might do it at some point myself, I'm not quite comfortable with that decision yet. But since I live and work in NY and see how hard it is to keep our hospitals in RNs as it is, it's hard to imagine ANYTHING that restricts hiring or retention being a good thing.

    We will always have a shortage of health care professionals in the nation. The baby boomer generation is going to have many people in retirement soon and there are fewer generation X'ers to take care of them. And with more fields opening up to women, less women are entering the nursing profession and following other dreams. The medical society is also doing way more things than in the past. So more jobs have been created that weren't around in the past. Do you know that there are shortages in many rural areas for Doctors??? But the level of entry to medical school hasn't been shortened and it still takes the same time for each doctor to earn a medical degree? I just have strong feelings to uphold a professional standard for nursing. We as a profession want to have a strong voice and be unified...but now can we when we have all this bickering b/t degrees. We need to respect those who choose to uphold a higher standard of education and not minimize it by saying its the same boards and both hold the same license. If that is what makes people feel better than so be it. But in all reality everyone would benefit if we could all agree to uphold a universal BSN degree. I think that people should be grandfathered in so that they don't have to pay large amounts of money to continue their education if they don't want to and are close to retirement. But we need to start somewhere!
  10. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from Jami_Jared
    We will always have a shortage of health care professionals in the nation. The baby boomer generation is going to have many people in retirement soon and there are fewer generation X'ers to take care of them. And with more fields opening up to women, less women are entering the nursing profession and following other dreams. The medical society is also doing way more things than in the past. So more jobs have been created that weren't around in the past. Do you know that there are shortages in many rural areas for Doctors??? But the level of entry to medical school hasn't been shortened and it still takes the same time for each doctor to earn a medical degree? I just have strong feelings to uphold a professional standard for nursing. We as a profession want to have a strong voice and be unified...but now can we when we have all this bickering b/t degrees. We need to respect those who choose to uphold a higher standard of education and not minimize it by saying its the same boards and both hold the same license. If that is what makes people feel better than so be it. But in all reality everyone would benefit if we could all agree to uphold a universal BSN degree. I think that people should be grandfathered in so that they don't have to pay large amounts of money to continue their education if they don't want to and are close to retirement. But we need to start somewhere!
    Your error in logic is that nursing did not and hasn't 'lowered' its standards due to a shortage. ADN nursing represented, at the time, a vast improvement in the quality of nursing education. It was a bridge to college level prep, a bridge that BSN could not provide on its own because there was simply no incentive to attain such a high degree for what amounted to an apprenticeship.

    At the time of ADN creation, only educators were seeking BSN. No bedside nurse sought such a degree because it was fundamentally unnecessary to the work being required.

    ADN bridged the gap, and as a result, nursing today is a college level prep career. Instead of respecting our contributions and path to advancement, today's BSN proponents want to dismiss the large amount of effort that was required to move nursing to where it is today: to a career where seeking a bach degree is widely considered an acceptable career pathway. You can thank ADN nursing for that transition.

    Where we go from here is a new story for a new day. But, if you think you can dismiss the contributions that got us this far, then it's a no-brainer that the result is going to be 'bickering'. At fundamental issue is the fact that this debate is an academic discussion that carries little weight in the real trenches of nursing.

    Your ADN peers perform smartly and professionally in those trenches. Your arguments regarding professionalism carries so little weight because those in the trenches know full well that 'minimum entry to practice' is of little import to professionals that have functioned in nursing for years. I can work circles around a new BSN and that is not a function of my degree but of my 14 yrs of nursing experience.

    The bottom line is this, the quicker you are to dismiss MY contributions to nursing, the quicker those like me will be to dismiss your arguments for advancement. Lost in translation is all the rationales for why your ideas are worthwhile to pursue. You lost me and others like me when you denigrate those considerable contributions.

    You talk about unity, but what you really mean is that you desire the debate to be silenced by fiat. You don't mean actually taking a unified stand with your peers because your very language shows disrepect to your peers. I'll agree with you on one thing, this debate will never move forward without unity of purpose. But, to attain that unity, you will have to embrace your peers and conceive a pathway that moves not just this issue along, but each of us with it.

    It's a good thing to conceive where to go from here. Thanks to ADN nursing, we can conceive the goal of college level prep that is the fruit of that pathway. Far from 'lowering' the standards of nursing, ADN programs elevated us to the point where we can consider this discussion.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  11. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I think in a perfect world, since it takes so stinking long to GET an ADN, we would just add the classes and clinical components required for the standard BSN and make ALL programs of study for nursing BSN programs, nationwide. As it stands now, in some places as many as 70% of first-time RNs hold AD degrees as they take their board exams and start out in their first jobs. It takes at least 3 years for most everyone to complete an AD in nursing----high time we just bite the bullet, add the clinical experiences and courses of study needed for a BSN and make ALL programs BSN for good. I think this would be beneficial to our profession in so many ways and solve the old, tired argument of what degree of entry should be required to be licensed as a professional RN our country. Times have changed; education is more important than ever, as is unity! Time to stop bickering and in-fighting over the educational level appropriate for professional nursing.

    To keep up with the times, and elevate our standing as a profession, and I do think we need to raise the level of education of RNs across the board. But it will be painfully slow in coming unless we convert all AD programs to BSN.

    I think it CAN BE DONE! Especially with internet and teleconference capabilities-----we could telecon BSN courses to any Community college anywhere---that would solve the problem of access so many of us who studied in rural, isolated areas faced when getting their nursing education. It also would be useful in the current state of shortage of nursing professors. We may not necessarily have to increase their numbers so greatly if we had teleconferencing into universities. No more inaccessiblity would be an improvement in my eyes and make it possible for darn near everyone to get their BSN first time around...... And there would not be so many people having to return to bridge from AD to BSN during busy careers.

    Anyhow, sorry to babble. I am just thinking as I write---and writing as I think.

    Hope it made sense?
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Feb 28, '07
  12. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    I think in a perfect world, since it takes so stinking long to GET an ADN, we would just add the classes and clinical components required for the standard BSN and make ALL programs of study for nursing BSN programs, nationwide. As it stands now, in some places as many as 70% of first-time RNs hold AD degrees as they take their board exams and start out in their first jobs. It takes at least 3 years for most everyone to complete an AD in nursing----high time we just bite the bullet, add the clinical experiences and courses of study needed for a BSN and make ALL programs BSN for good. I think this would be beneficial to our profession in so many ways and solve the old, tired argument of what degree of entry should be required to be licensed as a professional RN our country. Times have changed; education is more important than ever, as is unity! Time to stop bickering and in-fighting over the educational level appropriate for professional nursing.

    To keep up with the times, and elevate our standing as a profession, and I do think we need to raise the level of education of RNs across the board. But it will be painfully slow in coming unless we convert all AD programs to BSN.

    I think it CAN BE DONE! Especially with internet and teleconference capabilities-----we could telecon BSN courses to any Community college anywhere---that would solve the problem of access so many of us who studied in rural, isolated areas faced when getting their nursing education. It also would be useful in the current state of shortage of nursing professors. We may not necessarily have to increase their numbers so greatly if we had teleconferencing into universities. No more inaccessiblity would be an improvement in my eyes and make it possible for darn near everyone to get their BSN first time around...... And there would not be so many people having to return to bridge from AD to BSN during busy careers.

    Anyhow, sorry to babble. I am just thinking as I write---and writing as I think.

    Hope it made sense?
    A key concession to this idea and a potent first step towards BSN entry is that nursing needs a national articulation model where all the prep work of any degree pathway is fully transferable to every other degree path, nationwide.

    Just as the NCSBN is working on a national license compact, they should be working with SBONs to develop a cohesive, national articulation model.

    From there, it's just a matter of developing both how to get to all BSN programs AND how to bring all ADNs that so desire it up to date in a timely and clearly articulated manner.

    A fundamental element of such a model would be the ability of current RNs to grandfather into that model at a point that directly leads to BSN. Instead of diploma nurses having to lay heavy groundwork to get credit enough to pursue BSN or for any RN to have to 'update' long out of date coursework, evidence of an RN license, in itself, should serve as credit towards the bridge to BSN.

    For example, say a national articulation model points to 15 additional classes that distinguish ADN/diploma from BSN. A current RN license, in itself, should serve as the starting point to begin working on those 15 courses. And those 15 courses should be the same courses offered at any university, nationwide. At any point in my career that I decide to obtain a BSN, the pathway should be clearly articulated, nationally streamlined, and easily accessible.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Feb 28, '07
  13. by   SmilingBluEyes
    I have to agree with your post, Timothy. To put it succinctly, it CAN be done. But WILL we do it? I doubt it, at least in my lifetime.

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