NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 41

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   RN34TX
    Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

    As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

    I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

    I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

    The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

    But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

    As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.
    But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

    If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

    Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.
  2. by   lindarn
    Quote from RN34TX
    Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

    As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

    I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

    I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.


    The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

    But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

    As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.
    But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

    If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

    Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.
    I will once again say, that the ADN, Diploma, and certainly, LPN/LVN programs, do not prepare nurses for the real world. There is more to nursing, and being an employee in this day and age, than emptying bedpans, and giving report to the on-coming shift.

    ADN and Diploma programs may prepare nurses to be excellant bedside nurses, but these nurses are ill-prepared for the politics that health care has become and dealing with the day to day stresses that nursing has become.

    Nurses were like babes in the woods when hospitals instituted the devistating care changes ten years ago. We just did not kow how to react, how to defend our practice, and what our legal rights were in the workplace. We had no idea what actions we could have and should have taken, and indeed, too many of us were/are not unionized, or work in "right to work" states", with no workplace protections to allow us to inform the public what was going on.

    Our lack of a unifying body, and workplace protections, prevented us from being able to reach out to the public, the way teachers do to protect the classrooms. The necessary education that can be included in a nursing program, take too long for incorporation into ADN and Diploma programs. There is just not enough time in a 2 year program.

    Classes like, Employment Law, Administrative Law, how to start a business, Independant Contracting for nurses, Alternative Employment for nurses, bargaining in contract time, would go along way to "Immunizing Nurses", from workplace abuse. If you know the law, then it will be harder for hospitals to take advantage of us. The problen is, too many nurses are ignorant of Employment Law (your rights as an employee), and Administrative Law, which is the process that hospitals use in grievance procedures, termination procedures, etc. Don't you think it would make life alot easier if you knew the law, when dealing with abusive employers, and administrations? Prevent many situations from blowing up? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

    Then stop fighting the push for a higher educational level for nurses. It will only improve the image, (a neighbor just told me that "there isn't a nurse in this world that is worth more than $12 an hour"), and power of the profession. Education is power.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Jan 4, '07
  3. by   marilynmom
    Quote from RN34TX
    Speaking of leadership and management, I wish that the "Leadeship/Management" class in my BSN program was included in my LPN program.

    As a new LPN charging in a LTC facility, I felt ill-prepared for the charge nurse role that so many LPN's assume in LTC facilities. A leadership/management type class like the one in my BSN program would have been very helpful to me.

    I think it should be part of all ADN programs as well. It's not just BSN's who supervise and manage so why isn't it included in nursing programs at all levels?

    I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

    The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

    But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

    As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.
    But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

    If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

    Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.
    Excellent post!

    And your right about my BSN program having additional clinical time in areas the ADN programs do not offer such as public health, leadership, etc. More education is absolutly a GOOD THING, you can't have enough education and varied experience especially in the field of nursing. In my earlier posts I was defending the uneducated "opinion" that ADNs have more clinical time...which is absolutly NOT true.

    I think one of my pet peeves is certain nurses with ADNs almost try to put down the fact that BSN programs have classes in leadership/management, as if they are a waste and unneeded...which has always surprised me. Nurses should be trained as leaders (both ADN and BSN and LPN--not just BSN programs) because we are NOT just the physicians handmaids, we are leaders in our own profession and so we need to be trained as such.
  4. by   Gromit
    Quote from marilynmom
    Excellent post!

    And your right about my BSN program having additional clinical time in areas the ADN programs do not offer such as public health, leadership, etc. More education is absolutly a GOOD THING, you can't have enough education and varied experience especially in the field of nursing. In my earlier posts I was defending the uneducated "opinion" that ADNs have more clinical time...which is absolutly NOT true.

    I think one of my pet peeves is certain nurses with ADNs almost try to put down the fact that BSN programs have classes in leadership/management, as if they are a waste and unneeded...which has always surprised me. Nurses should be trained as leaders (both ADN and BSN and LPN--not just BSN programs) because we are NOT just the physicians handmaids, we are leaders in our own profession and so we need to be trained as such.
    It may be a pet peeve of yours, but by and large the criticism is from the BSN side against the ADN side, not the other way around. I'd be hard-pressed to find any ADNs who criticise those who have the ability and desire to continue on and get a higher degree. But I do get my own hackles up when a BSN student or graduate starts poo-pooing those of us who (for whatever reason) are ADN degreed only.
    Many of us have our own reasons for the ADN level -not the least of which is we didn't have someone else to pay the bill, or provide us with room and board, or perhaps there weren't any openings. For my part, I went back to school to become an RN a bit later in life (I was older than some of my teachers, and only one other student was older than me) -I needed a program that would allow me to work full-time (which meant a night-program with weekend-only clinicals. They were very long clinicals, but we were able to get our hours in) Lets not even go on about the regular needs and responsibilities of having to make house payments and other everyday needs.
    The resentment the ADNs feel should be understandable -by their very criticism and desire to make it mandatory that EVERYONE hold a 4 yr degree just to do nursing, would certainly cut down on the number of people who COULD meet such requirements -and for WHAT? So they can all become better future managers? You certainly do not need to understand the 'politics' of the profession, or understand how to start your own business, etc etc. just to do good bedside care. Many have absolutely NO desire to become managers or start their own businesses. I personally have no interest in getting involved in office politics. I've played that game, and quite honestly I'm quite sick of it. By making the cry that BSN should be mandatory minimum for someone to be a nurse, you belittle those of us who are NOT BSNs, but ARE RNs (or LPNs or whatever). Listen to yourself. Is it so hard to understand why we may lash back?
    Hey, go ahead, get your wish and make it mandatory for RNs to be BSN. You won't raise your level of pay -the public out there (including that naive dimwit mentioned earlier who thinks Nursing should be a $12/hr job) isn't going to show any deference to your 'better' degree. As far as THEY will be concerned, you will STILL be an 'overpaid buttwipe', since that is the way dimwits like that view nurses. Having the BSN behind your name won't mean diddly to him or others like him. And management (corporate) will only see the need for nurses to fill the spots, and the bottom-line pay is X dollars an hour -congrats on your BSN, but youre still a bedside nurse and this is what THAT pays -period.
    If you HONESTLY think I've got the wrong picture, then more power to you because you won't see it the way I'm telling it until you've lived the adventure for yourself. I've worked for large companies (the biggest being monsantos) and I've worked for counties -which act a lot like large companies and vice versa. I've been on the hire/fire side, and I've BEEN hired and fired.
    You were able to go to a four-year college and get the bigger degree. Good for you. Its the height of arrogance to THEN decide that everyone else should do so as well -as a minimum. THIS is the attitude displayed by many of the BSN students and degreed in this "debate". ADNs have no particular reason to try to degrade the BSNs, but it seems many BSNs feel the need to do so to the ADNs.
    -
    then people wonder where the animosity between the nurses comes from.
  5. by   hogan4736
    Quote from RN34TX
    I'd also like to add to the comments about whether or not one program has more clinicals than the other.

    The clinicals here (as well as other cities/states I've lived in) at the local ADN and BSN programs are comperable with respect to the areas covered on the NCLEX (Med/Surg, OB/GYN/L&D, peds, psych, etc.)

    But the BSN programs, at least all in Texas that I know of, all have additional clinicals in public health, case management, and management/leadeship that are not covered in the ADN programs, so I disagree in this respect that the clinicals in both programs are equal and comparable.

    As far as RN licensure and competency is concerned, yes they are comparable and equal.
    But BSN programs do have additional clinical (as well as theory in these areas) requirements that I've had to meet as an ADN nurse completing the BSN.

    If ADN and BSN clinicals were that comparable, I wouldn't be in school right now doing clinicals.

    Granted, these clinicals hardly come close to the grueling intensity and difficulty as those in a generic RN program, and I believe that anyone who is able to complete an ADN program most certainly could complete a BSN program, but that doesn't make both programs comparable.

    Let me clarify:

    The clinical hours for the first four semesters are the same for ADN/BSN...

    Any extra classes that subsequently have clinicals (case management, leadership) certainly will add to the clinical total...

    However, a misconception is that "one could start their nursing career 2 years earlier with an ADN"

    this is laughable...

    when I was doing my prereqs, the community colleges required the SAME prereqs...the actual nursing program at the CCs was 4 semesters, vs 5 semesters at the university...still the same today...so the 2 years earlier argument is WAY off...

    the only reason I got my BSN was because the local university had no waiting list, while all the CCs did...

    The only benefit that I could see to my leadership/management class was 108 more clinical hours...

    In all reality, NO nursing program (LPN, ADN BSN, ANP) truly prepares you for real nursing...OJT with a good preceptor is where it's really at!

    The person makes the nurse, NOT the education...
    Last edit by hogan4736 on Jan 5, '07 : Reason: spelling
  6. by   scrubsnhugsRN
    I am really frustrated at the notion that all ADN programs are the same. Let me tell you my program required us to have Bachleor level math, chemistry, english to obtain my AAS. I see other programs that dont even require college level math or english. Furthermore we had classes on Leadership/management. I realize that I would, of course, need more classes in this subject as a BSN but believe me it would not be that much more. I did three years to aquire my AAS. and BSN is a four year degree. In my program first year was LPN(two semesters) and second year(two semesters) was RN. I did clinicals regarding public health nursing...so dont assume that since I have a lowly AAS degree that I am an idiot.
    I have the same responsibilties on the floor as a BSN does, and there is no difference in pay where I work. The only difference is that they can go into managment and I have no dreams for management, I'd rather do patient care..
    Not all ADN, AAS degrees are equal.
  7. by   marilynmom
    Quote from Gromit
    It may be a pet peeve of yours, but by and large the criticism is from the BSN side against the ADN side, not the other way around. I'd be hard-pressed to find any ADNs who criticise those who have the ability and desire to continue on and get a higher degree. But I do get my own hackles up when a BSN student or graduate starts poo-pooing those of us who (for whatever reason) are ADN degreed only.
    Many of us have our own reasons for the ADN level -not the least of which is we didn't have someone else to pay the bill, or provide us with room and board, or perhaps there weren't any openings. For my part, I went back to school to become an RN a bit later in life (I was older than some of my teachers, and only one other student was older than me) -I needed a program that would allow me to work full-time (which meant a night-program with weekend-only clinicals. They were very long clinicals, but we were able to get our hours in) Lets not even go on about the regular needs and responsibilities of having to make house payments and other everyday needs.
    The resentment the ADNs feel should be understandable -by their very criticism and desire to make it mandatory that EVERYONE hold a 4 yr degree just to do nursing, would certainly cut down on the number of people who COULD meet such requirements -and for WHAT? So they can all become better future managers? You certainly do not need to understand the 'politics' of the profession, or understand how to start your own business, etc etc. just to do good bedside care. Many have absolutely NO desire to become managers or start their own businesses. I personally have no interest in getting involved in office politics. I've played that game, and quite honestly I'm quite sick of it. By making the cry that BSN should be mandatory minimum for someone to be a nurse, you belittle those of us who are NOT BSNs, but ARE RNs (or LPNs or whatever). Listen to yourself. Is it so hard to understand why we may lash back?
    Hey, go ahead, get your wish and make it mandatory for RNs to be BSN. You won't raise your level of pay -the public out there (including that naive dimwit mentioned earlier who thinks Nursing should be a $12/hr job) isn't going to show any deference to your 'better' degree. As far as THEY will be concerned, you will STILL be an 'overpaid buttwipe', since that is the way dimwits like that view nurses. Having the BSN behind your name won't mean diddly to him or others like him. And management (corporate) will only see the need for nurses to fill the spots, and the bottom-line pay is X dollars an hour -congrats on your BSN, but youre still a bedside nurse and this is what THAT pays -period.
    If you HONESTLY think I've got the wrong picture, then more power to you because you won't see it the way I'm telling it until you've lived the adventure for yourself. I've worked for large companies (the biggest being monsantos) and I've worked for counties -which act a lot like large companies and vice versa. I've been on the hire/fire side, and I've BEEN hired and fired.
    You were able to go to a four-year college and get the bigger degree. Good for you. Its the height of arrogance to THEN decide that everyone else should do so as well -as a minimum. THIS is the attitude displayed by many of the BSN students and degreed in this "debate". ADNs have no particular reason to try to degrade the BSNs, but it seems many BSNs feel the need to do so to the ADNs.
    -
    then people wonder where the animosity between the nurses comes from.
    Hey I agree with you and we have a lot in common (kids, house, car payments, etc).

    I think maybe you misunderstood me. I was referring to some of the earlier posts about the whole BSN get no clinical time...that is all I was referring to!! My post really had nothing to do with the BSN as minimum. I really could care less...LOL.

    I also would have been happy as hell to have been accepted into any nursing program! I am VERY blessed to be in the program I am in, I have many friends who have been applying for years and still get rejection letters. When I read the paper and it said that over 40,000 qualified applicans were turned away from nursing school last year I felt so blessed to be where I am right now.

    I don't believe that either program prepares you better for real world nursing either.
    Last edit by marilynmom on Jan 5, '07
  8. by   marilynmom
    Quote from Indy
    Allright, I'm gonna try this again and hope the computer keeps me logged in long enough to take it.

    I have been of the opinion that the diploma nurses had the best entry to practice, due to the high amount of clinical experience, longer rotations in multiple hospital areas, etc. along with the three years of school. And because they had a hospital backing instead of a college or university partnership and course catalog, the graduates of those schools have gotten the short end of the stick; great education and no degree to show for it. At least us ADN's can bridge to a BSN if we can pay for it; most universities don't accept squat from a diploma program for credit.

    Which brings up my next point. Nursing is a unique profession. I feel free to call it a profession simply because it is unique. It isn't a lot of things, but a lot of other jobs have elements present in nursing. It is the only job in the medical field that requires personnel 24/7, 365 days a year. Not even MD's are required to monitor a patient so thoroughly, and be responsible for every single little picky thing concerning that patient. They will eventually leave the surgical suite, PT only sees 'em for thirty minutes a day, pharmacy has to send the right meds for sure, management needs to make sure we get paid and scheduled, etc. However, the bedside nurse is responsible for the rest of it.

    So. We're unique. Why don't universities take our uniqueness into consideration when deciding what counts as credit? Experience should count, certifications should count. Period. We should be recognized and respected for doing the dirtiest of jobs and doubly so if we want a degree in doing this dirty, wonderful, demanding job.
    Good points. Especially about the diploma based nursing programs. It is a shame, but I wouldn't even consider a diploma nursing program because in the end they don't get jack crap for their diploma! I would have to go back to school to do the same thing over again just for the degree if I wanted to go beyond the BSN (APN, etc). That is sad, but true.

    I think experience should count, absolutly. That is why I would never agree that if the BSN becomes standard, that ADNs should have to go back and get their BSN, it should be grandfathered in to them.
  9. by   Gromit
    Quote from marilynmom
    Hey I agree with you and we have a lot in common (kids, house, car payments, etc).

    I think maybe you misunderstood me. I was referring to some of the earlier posts about the whole BSN get no clinical time...that is all I was referring to!! My post really had nothing to do with the BSN as minimum. I really could care less...LOL.

    I also would have been happy as hell to have been accepted into any nursing program! I am VERY blessed to be in the program I am in, I have many friends who have been applying for years and still get rejection letters. When I read the paper and it said that over 40,000 qualified applicans were turned away from nursing school last year I felt so blessed to be where I am right now.

    I don't believe that either program prepares you better for real world nursing either.
    In that case, You're right, I misunderstood you. I know what you mean about feeling blessed or lucky that you got in -I was rejected the first time, but accepted the second time -the first time was on a technicality (so I was told), and the second time, I was initially going to be rejected (the college has no 'official' waiting list, but.... ) and then they added the first-ever night program (for that CC) and I was offered a spot -which I jumped at.
    They didn't have a very high rejection level at the time -nothing like today -they could book ahead by over two YEARS and not manage to take all the applicants.
    A lot of folks want in -and looking around, a fair amount want out (grin -I'm stayin' ) and the 'boomer' generation is knocking on 'old fart-knocker' doors, getting ready to become a further strain on an already strained system.
    So that being the case, I'm not concerned in the slightest. Our 'value' is going to go UP, not down. All the doctors in the world cannot replace us, and most folks would lose their lunch if they had to deal with much of what we deal with, so we will be in ever greater need.
    I've had jobs where I had to work other jobs outside of the field I was trained in, because there were no openings anywhere (when I was a paramedic/firefighter, I actually worked for a large construction company as a safety coordinator -nightshift- while I put in applications up to 100 miles away from where I lived. For jobs that only paid $21k/yr to start! There were (and still are) far too many of us qualified medics, and no openings. I must say, its gratifying being in a field where you are actually in demand.

    Last but not least (by far) -I couldn't possibly agree more about the statement that none of 'em can prepare you for the 'real' world. I still remember the butterflies I had while I was so proud of my newly minted license number, but also nervous because now it was 'for real'.
    My biggest fear back when I was a medic is still the same fear I live with today as an RN: Medication errors. I've always been mortified at the thought of giving the wrong med, or wrong does, or (Heaven forbid) putting an incompatible IV with another.
    SO FAR, that fear has always been my ally. I re-check and check once more.
    One of the nurses on our floor DID screw one up (wrong insulin) and you could feel the tension on the floor until the end of the shift. I'll give ANYTHING to never be in that position.
    Last edit by Gromit on Jan 6, '07
  10. by   pkapple
    My concern is the statement that any RN who does not have a BSN within 10 years of this passing will be reduced to an LPN. Here comes trouble...Suddenly the education and experience obtained reverts from a college level to Vocational level-yet one would still hold an associates degree, so we could have yet another level of LPN-its confusing enough figuring out which LPN can hang piggybacks or start an IV and which can actually push Iv meds-from the list of approved meds.....

    Now if a hospital wanted an all BSN staff that would be their right, but I am sure NJ, MA, VT, OH and PA would benefit from the border town nurses as would many travel nurse agencies!!!

    Many hospitals that offer tuition help to staff limit how much they pay each semester--can you imagine the budget cries--say 200 nurses above the usual numbers suddenly want 1000.00 tuition assist for the next 5 or more semesters, not to mention some flexibility in schedules to attend required clinical obligations---what a nightmare1

    Come on New York-grandfather the ADN's currently holding a NY license, require BSN for verification/reprocity
  11. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from pkapple
    My concern is the statement that any RN who does not have a BSN within 10 years of this passing will be reduced to an LPN. Here comes trouble...Suddenly the education and experience obtained reverts from a college level to Vocational level-yet one would still hold an associates degree, so we could have yet another level of LPN-its confusing enough figuring out which LPN can hang piggybacks or start an IV and which can actually push Iv meds-from the list of approved meds.....

    Now if a hospital wanted an all BSN staff that would be their right, but I am sure NJ, MA, VT, OH and PA would benefit from the border town nurses as would many travel nurse agencies!!!

    Many hospitals that offer tuition help to staff limit how much they pay each semester--can you imagine the budget cries--say 200 nurses above the usual numbers suddenly want 1000.00 tuition assist for the next 5 or more semesters, not to mention some flexibility in schedules to attend required clinical obligations---what a nightmare1

    Come on New York-grandfather the ADN's currently holding a NY license, require BSN for verification/reprocity
    The NY plan, which was tabled without a vote and is therefore no longer pending legislation, would have grandfathered all existing ADNs. It would have required the 10yr conversion only for RNs that graduated after passage.

    The concept is moot though because the proposed legislation is dead.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Jan 7, '07
  12. by   wincha
    I have been a RN for over 20 years and first recieved a BA double major. There is no way I would ever go back to get my BSN. I would get my masters in another field.
  13. by   Gromit
    I'm glad it fell through though. It would have opened up a nasty can of worms.
    I do intend to get my Bachelors, but on my OWN timetable, not someone elses. It just strikes me as silly though, for a state to try to demand more when a shortage exists -and no doubt they expected the BSN to make the same pay as when they didn't require the 4yr degree. That would be the insult to the injury.
    I know my statement makes it should like this is only a money issue, but for cryin' out loud, this isn't a hobby, its how we make our LIVING. When cities expect more out of their own employees, they increase their pay grade. For Nurses, they just expect us to take it and keep quiet, I guess.

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