NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 39

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   japaho41
    [quote=NephroBSN]There is an initiative afoot to require NP's to have a PhD.

    I am not sure this is such a great idea. What about PA's then will they still continue to walk around with their BA in art history and a MS and make the equivalent to a PhD NP. That would be something.
  2. by   sushiart
    Once again...advocate the absolute minimum requirements to do our job. Thats sure to impress, the paper pushers and provide future change. Good thinking.

    When will the AS crowd realize, its not about how good of a nurse you are, etc---Nursing is something all of us agree is based on experience, not our formal education...But, its about a standard entry level and something considered "professional" to advance us along with ALL of the other BS mandated fields. But nah, we just need the bare essentials to keep us trucking on. Why bother changing, right? Not like anyone is going to fix it...I mean a workforce of BSN grads wouldnt have the power to change anything right? We would be just as much of a weak voice for the profession I am sure.

    Good logic, there.
  3. by   RN34TX
    Quote from sushiart
    Once again...advocate the absolute minimum requirements to do our job. Thats sure to impress, the paper pushers and provide future change. Good thinking.

    When will the AS crowd realize, its not about how good of a nurse you are, etc---Nursing is something all of us agree is based on experience, not our formal education...But, its about a standard entry level and something considered "professional" to advance us along with ALL of the other BS mandated fields. But nah, we just need the bare essentials to keep us trucking on. Why bother changing, right? Not like anyone is going to fix it...I mean a workforce of BSN grads wouldnt have the power to change anything right? We would be just as much of a weak voice for the profession I am sure.

    Good logic, there.
    And once again......
    Let's examine how much the BSN requirement has advanced the nursing profession in Canada.

    Canadian nurses are so happy and successful in their careers, and have so much power as a profession, that they are coming down here in droves to work just to get a full time job with benefits.
  4. by   suzy253
    Quote from lindarn
    In other words, the ADNs and diploma nurses need to validate their self worth and self importance, and the best way to do that is to believe the administration when they tell them these things. Administration then doesn't have to be the bad guy, and make a big thing out depriving nurses with a higher degree a higher rate of pay. They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

    And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker. And the administration is laughing all the way to their board room meetings.
    JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Please tell me you're joking. I have never read such rubbish in a long, long time.
    Your statement is laughable, actually. Sad, but laughable.
    Last edit by suzy253 on May 16, '06
  5. by   Indy
    Okay, I give up. I've been logged in all blinking day. Three times I've tried to post a response to this farking thread, and each time it logs me out before I'm done.
  6. by   FroggysMom
    All this is making my head spin!

    I'll be retiring (early) and will leave it to the rest of you to duke it out. The only thing that scares me is that when my husband and I are older and in need of professional care, that nursing will have imploded due to all the infighting going on and heaven only knows what a mess we will have left over. If you think there is a nursing shortage now, just wait.

    Please, everyone, stop beating each other up!
  7. by   subee
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    Subee, where I live in Canada there should not be a nursing shortage, EVER. There are more than enough nurses that live in my area that would work in Canada if the job opportunities were available. Hospitals are understaffing to cut costs, at the expense of the nurses (and patients), not because there are not enought nurses to fill vacancies. Canadian nurses are not able to find full-time jobs, that is one of the biggest incentives for many to leave. People are not going to want to get into a profession that has poor job prospects. Hospitals are offering part-time, casual, or temporary positions. They want staff that they can move around to whatever shift they want and at their beck and call. Part-time nurses can wind up working full-time hours without the benefits and the added bonus of jumping from days to afternoons to nights. Self-scheduling isn't an option. Vacations can be turned down at the last minute. No such thing as agency nurses in the hospitals.

    Restructuring/downsizing of hospitals has lead to more people being taken care of in long-term care facilities or at home, where nurses are paid less with inferior benefits as compared to being employed by a hospital. The city I live in went from having 4 hospitals to 2, numerous nurses were laid off because of this restructuring. This same situation also happened elsewhere in Ontario.

    Despite having worked for years (>10) at one facility as an RPN/LPN, I could not get a full-time job as an RN once I was done school, I was offered a temporary position. Generous of them, eh? Only 2 hospitals in this city, oh and they streamlined services, trauma at one, OB/L&D at the other, dialysis at one, NICU/Peds at the other, Pysch at one, oncology at the other, etc. I applied at the other hospital, and they also offered me a temporary position.

    Here is a site from ONA (Ontario Nurses Association)
    http://www.stillnotenoughnurses.ca/
    The equivalent of between 7,000 and 8,600 full-time jobs, Canada-wide, is being performed by nurses working overtime!
    There is almost a perfect correlation between overtime and sick time; additional hours worked are later taken off.
    Over the course of a year, some 16 million nursing hours are lost to injury and illness in Canada, equalling about 9,000 fulltime jobs.

    They neglect to mention how many part-time nurses are working full-time hours, or OT for straight time.

    The latter 1990s saw Community Care Access Centres (CCACs) boost their patronage of for-profit agencies by some 265 per cent as a market-driven system became the rule in homecare provision. The result was not a positive one for health professionals as unionized employers like the Victorian Order of Nurses (VON) were pushed out by firms paying lower salaries. And while the current provincial government has pumped over $100 million into homecare with the objective of boosting staff levels, evidence suggests that the proportion of full-time employment is not improving.

    Its not that different here. Many hospitals are under pressure to close beds or close entirely because they are underutilized. If all the nurses available were working, we'd have no shortage here, either. Hiring two part-timers instead of one with benefits is also usual. As for the Victorian Order of Nurses situation, its only the expression of the bad side of capitalism. Sick people are becoming second class citizens. But I believe that we have the money to do things, its just that we do the most procedures to the wrong patients. The frail elderly are on their own if they have no family to advocate for them. If the hospital can generate income performing procedures to patients that can't consent (or not consent!) to them, then the procedure will be done until every oriface has been explored. I don't know if the situation would be different if the docs were on salary.
  8. by   leslie :-D
    i wrote to the mna and asked what incentive was there for me to get my bsn, if i had no plans of leaving the bedside?

    the response?
    magnet hospitals had to have 50% of their rns w/bsns.
    and those hospitals trying to attain magnet status, were targeting bsn nurses to work there.
    that's all.
    and she said for me to call her; i'm sure to try and make me a member.

    not a great incentive imo.

    leslie
  9. by   zenman
    Quote from FroggysMom
    All this is making my head spin!

    Please, everyone, stop beating each other up!
    Now, you know that won't happen till we have one entry level, LOL! In countries that have only one entry level, some of them developing countries, you don't see such arguments. Here, as one poster said, we fight to maintain the minimum standards. We also ask, "what's the incentive to get a BSN?" For myself, the incentive was not to get by with the minimum, but to exceed that. For some strange reason, I found that the sociology courses, etc. and even that management course, better prepared me for the bedside. Really strange.

    A good analogy might be boot camp. It doesn't matter what you come in with, you are going to all have the same basic training and function as a team.
  10. by   Indy
    Allright, I'm gonna try this again and hope the computer keeps me logged in long enough to take it.

    I have been of the opinion that the diploma nurses had the best entry to practice, due to the high amount of clinical experience, longer rotations in multiple hospital areas, etc. along with the three years of school. And because they had a hospital backing instead of a college or university partnership and course catalog, the graduates of those schools have gotten the short end of the stick; great education and no degree to show for it. At least us ADN's can bridge to a BSN if we can pay for it; most universities don't accept squat from a diploma program for credit.

    Which brings up my next point. Nursing is a unique profession. I feel free to call it a profession simply because it is unique. It isn't a lot of things, but a lot of other jobs have elements present in nursing. It is the only job in the medical field that requires personnel 24/7, 365 days a year. Not even MD's are required to monitor a patient so thoroughly, and be responsible for every single little picky thing concerning that patient. They will eventually leave the surgical suite, PT only sees 'em for thirty minutes a day, pharmacy has to send the right meds for sure, management needs to make sure we get paid and scheduled, etc. However, the bedside nurse is responsible for the rest of it.

    So. We're unique. Why don't universities take our uniqueness into consideration when deciding what counts as credit? Experience should count, certifications should count. Period. We should be recognized and respected for doing the dirtiest of jobs and doubly so if we want a degree in doing this dirty, wonderful, demanding job.

    That being said, I still think I might get my BSN sometime and I'm not holding my breath for such changes to take place. But I'll tell anyone who will listen what I think of the need to bend my life around school yet again, when it was pretty hellacious the first time.
  11. by   sushiart
    Re: the issue with Canadian nurses and the BSN req.---would that not have something to do with the nature of the healthcare system there and why they prefer to work in the US?

    Has anyone discussed that?
  12. by   ZASHAGALKA
    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm
    Regarding distinctions between BSN/ADN RNs:
    "Although a number of models for differentiating nursing roles have been proposed, they have been difficult to implement in health care areas where identical licensure implies that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Attempts to identify variables that can distinguish educational preparation in practice settings have yielded few that can be easily measured."

    The BSN-entry debate is CLEARLY an example of 'be careful what you wish for'.

    AS soon as BSN becomes standard, the new finding will be that BSNs are the 'technical' nurses to the APN's 'professional' nursing.

    And the difference between the silly claim claim of a 'professional/technical' relationship between BSN/ADN and one between BSN-entry/APN is that there already exists the 'differentiated nursing roles' between BSN and APN to make such a designation stick.

    So, just like what happened to PT when they outstripped their work supply with their education requirements, the 'professional' APNs will be the supervisors to bedside BSN 'technical' nursing.

    All those pathways and doors currently opened by BSN - OF COURSE they will be 'kicked upstairs' to the 'professional' APNs.

    And, since BSNs are clearly, by differentiated roles, less of a nurse than the true professionals, the APNs - well they aren't worth as much. Since we already have true 'professional' nurses in management, the bedside 'technical' BSNs should be paid LESS.

    Why paid less? Differentiation means that APNs must be paid more and that creates a differential so that the actual bedside providers are paid less. This is EXACTLY what happened with PT/OT. Sure their higher education meant that PT/OT salaries went WAY up. But. Hospitals subsidized that cost by having the ACTUAL care now be provided by 'techs'. And those 'techs' are paid much less. In actuality, hospitals are happy with this arrangement as it DECREASED the overall costs of PT/OT services.

    Just like the 'tech' BSN nurse that will be providing bedside nursing in this 'idealistic' future will decrease overall nursing costs. . .

    Don't think it could happen? Read below . . .

    (from the same link above, a PRO-BSN link):
    "Doors to future educational changes should be kept open, but moving education to the BSN level is the first step. Noting the increasing complexity of health care, some nurse leaders are concerned that a baccalaureate degree is no longer sufficient preparation for practice. They advocate master's or even doctoral level education and abandonment of the Registered Nurse title in favor of an advanced practice role that is clearly distinguished from entry into practice at the associate degree level. While raising the educational bar even higher can possibly be justified in terms of the knowledge base needed for advancing professional practice, we need to pay attention to past lessons and view with caution any proposed solution that would further split the profession and separate nurses with college degrees from the ranks of bedside caregivers."

    Read that last sentence carefully: the problem with this future is that any such proposals must be designed so as not to further separate nurses with college degrees from being bedside caregivers. How could it be designed that way? Limit BSNs scope to only work in a technical capacity AT THE BEDSIDE. And because of THAT limitation, salaries should and will also be commensurately limited.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 17, '06
  13. by   Cochise RN
    When I got my ADN in NY State 26 years ago, they were saying the same thing then about requiring only BSN RNs. Not much has changed...The wheels of progress move slow...

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