NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 37

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   NephroBSN
    ....................
    Last edit by NephroBSN on May 22, '06
  2. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from lindarn
    I would say that it has more to do with the culture of the country, and its male dominated heirarchy. In other words, nurses are women and women are not respected as part of their culture, regardless of what they do. Women are less equal than men, when it comes to respect, and the impact and control that they are allowed to have. In other words, women are treated like dirt, regardless of how much or little education they have. Nursing is not respected because it is a female dominated profession. Period. It doesn't matter how much education they have. Women in these countries have no power when they are in female dominated professions, just like here.

    But it doesn't have to be like that in this country. It has become like that because nurses have been slow to unionize and take control of their profession. Without a union contract, they are afraid to complain, and bring their concerns to the public. They would be, and are, being fired, in retaliatory discharges. They are made the "example", for everyone to see what happens when you complain.

    In this country, it has more to do with our socialization as less worthy than physicians, and the culture that grew up around nursing, as being subservient handmaidens to physicians, who until recently, were mostly men. It is not like that in other professions, and it doesn't have to be like that in nursing.

    The women in these countries in female dominated professions are VERY subservient to men and authority in general, and it shows in the way they are so easily intimidated by the hospital administration. That is why hospitals like to being them over here. They are so easily pushed around, and threatened with being sent back to their own country in disgrace if they don't do what they are told.

    It doesn't have to be like that here. I cannot believe how naive nurses are. WHO is tellling you that a BSN is not important? Who refuses to recognize and reward nurses with BSNs? Who, in general, treats you like crap? Who lies to you, and continuously works at making your contributions to patient care and outcomes invisible? And now you believe them when they say that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse" regardless of how much education they have? I have a bridge in Brooklyn I will be happy to sell you, along with the beachfront property in the Arizona desert.

    In other words, the ADNs and diploma nurses need to validate their self worth and self importance, and the best way to do that is to believe the administration when they tell them these things. Administration then doesn't have to be the bad guy, and make a big thing out depriving nurses with a higher degree a higher rate of pay. They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

    And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker. And the administration is laughing all the way to their board room meetings.
    JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Maybe where you're from, but no one says that sort of thing here. Where I work, nurses are encouraged to take advantage of educational opportunities. My hosp. has an arrangement with a university for a once a week class (Saturday) for BSN completion. Do we get a lot of money for tuition reimb.? No, but we do get some.

    They also encourage nurses to gain new skills. I just got put on the list for training for PICC insertion.

    You continue to undermine diploma and ADN nurses as being naive, foolish, jaded people. You've more than once said we were no better than "blue collar trailer trash." And more than once you've stated that ADN and diploma nurses (like me) drag down the profession.

    Attitudes such as yours do just as much damage to nursing's quest for unity as the ADN and diploma nurses who say a BSN is "just a bunch of fluff courses." Neither attitude helps the situation.
  3. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    The biggest problem with the nursing profession is the lack of cohesion amongst nurses, ALL NURSES. If nurses stuck together on one unit in one hospital they could change things on their unit. If nurses in one hospital stuck together they could change things for that hospital. If nurses banned together throughout a state, they could change legislature in that state.
    EXACTLY

    But how do you plan on nurses 'banding' together when 30% of nurses want to outlaw the other 70%?

    This is a 'moot' debate. There will be and can be no change to the current educational pathways for some time to come. That is nursing economics 101. In the meantime, IT IS THIS VERY DEBATE that fractures nurses and robs us of the chance for the voice that would grab the brass ring of professionalism.

    IT'S NOT ADNs THAT HOLD US BACK; IT'S THE ADN VS. BSN DEBATE itself. There are those that argue that not buying into the ADN/BSN debate means that the status quo will 'keep us down'. I believe that BUYING into the ADN/BSN debate fractures us over a moot point and 'keeps us down'.

    Oh sure, we can and I think we SHOULD streamline and standardize the process from ADN to BSN.

    But some have discussed this issue AS IF they believe that the ADN pathway is a sellout to the shortage; 'DECREASING' the value of the BSN program.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. The BSN program has NEVER been a standard from which we are now deviating. NO. It's just a sham to state that 'other' professions wouldn't 'lower' their standards in a shortage. Neither has nursing.

    The BSN program, just like the ADN program, is an evolution from diploma nursing, which itself is an evolution from 'OJT' training.

    And as a result, Nurses are more highly trained than they have ever been. All nurses.

    And I completely disagree that we will become 'professional' by unionizing. Unions are a sign of 'blue collar' work. If you want to be treated as a 'professional', the way to do so is NOT to sell your voice to a 'trade' organization.

    Professionals affect change and policy through PROFESSIONAL organizations; not unions.

    But, when our national organization represents less than 30% of nurses and then, only by using that voice to support left wing causes AT THE EXPENSE of nursing: is it any wonder we are stuck in between? Is it any wonder we have no effective professional organization? Ask our Canadian counterparts: Is it any wonder that a unified 'blue collar trade' protection of unions can't take the place of a professional organization?

    You want this so-called 'respect'? BSN-entry won't grant it. Everyone that defines professionalism by THAT standard will always be 'technical' nurses by the lack of attainment of said standard. No. Respect will come with a voice that can't be ignored. And THAT voice requires, not arrows and slings at each other, but a unified consensus that the ADN/BSN debate will always deny.

    I'm not a member of ANA. Why the heck would I be when they argue for my demise. . . And THAT'S the rub.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 14, '06
  4. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from NephroBSN
    John Stossel on 20/20 busted the myth of low paid teachers last night. They make middle class wages and only work 9 months out of the year. Ave. wage for teachers is mid $30's not peanuts in most of the country.

    One teacher on his show actually makes $55,000 for nine months of work. Not too shabby.
    And I can point you to plumbers, electricians and sanitation people, who make more than that, and in some cases, twice that (especially in the case of electrician, as a cousin of mine is one) And these folks , as a rule, do not have bachelor's or higher degrees. It's not about money, but respect and self-advocacy. And we don't even respect or advocate for ourselves as a profession as we can see right here.

    And teachers ARE very low-paid in many areas. 55K is nothing in a place where housing may exceed 300-600K per house, as is the case in many metro areas.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 14, '06
  5. by   subee
    Quote from Erin RN
    So for those of you that do have your BSN: If the state you are working in implemented a reuqirement that you must have your MSN, not any Masters but your MSN..what kind of reaction would you have? I am just curious.
    No one is forcing YOU to get a BSN. Grandfathering.
  6. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from subee
    No one is forcing YOU to get a BSN. Grandfathering.
    That's a lie.

    The point of grandfathering would be to grant a 'temporary' reprieve. It's a necessary selling point ONLY to sell the change, and no longer necessary once the change is made.

    The ultimate goal is spelled out in the most wicked and nasty of the BSN-entry indoctrinations:

    BSN = 'professional' nurse

    ADN = 'technical' nurse.

    No thank you and keep the above lie AND the lie about grandfathering.

    I'd rather our voices be split and we be totally dominated by our administrators and allied peers than to have a voice that belongs to me yet nevertheless, advocates against me.

    See the issue here is a unified voice. I believe the way to do that is to band together as NURSES. The BSN-entry argument is that, if we eliminate all dissenting voices, then we'll haved a unified voice by default.

    Let me make this point clear: anybody that defines BSN-entry as the point/goal of professionalism is - and always will be - a 'technical' nurse. Why? In a world where professionalism is an aspiration, I'm no more of a professional than a BSN nurse.

    And no less.

    By that definition, we are ALL 'technical' nurses.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on May 14, '06
  7. by   subee
    Quote from orrnlori
    Okay, so now we are all a bunch of blue collar trailer trash. I love it.

    Please READ lindarn's post. That's not what she said.
  8. by   PANurseRN1
    She has said it many, many times in the past. Look through her old posts if you don't believe me.
  9. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from lindarn
    They just tell the ADNs and Diploma nurses, "WELL, those nurses with those BSNs. THEY WANT TO MAKE MORE MONEY THAN YOU BECAUSE THEY HAVE A MEASLY PIECE OF PAPER!!! IMAGINE THAT!!! And the ADNs and Diploma nurses do their dirty work for them in contract negotiations. And they come out smelling like a rose.

    And the ADNs and Diploma nurses fall for it hook, line and sinker.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    good grief linda.
    how can you honestly profess such a generalized, disparaging statement?
    are all adns/diploma nurses really that short-sighted and gullible?
    if it wasn't so preposterous, i'd find it laughable.
    whatever you think, my dear.

    leslie
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    NO they have not (kept education stagnant), and neither do nurses.

    Dunno about you, but I have to keep up a LOT of continuing education to remain current in my field of Obstetrics, and certs as well. So no, my education is NOT stagnant. Nor would that of any actively-practicing nurse be so....


    It would be easy to say oneday, if BSNs were the only RNs out there, that THEY are "stagnant" because they are not all getting their MSN or PhD.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 14, '06
  11. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from earle58
    good grief linda.
    how can you honestly profess such a generalized, disparaging statement?
    are all adns/diploma nurses really that short-sighted and gullible?
    if it wasn't so preposterous, i'd find it laughable.
    whatever you think, my dear.
    ITA
  12. by   subee
    Quote from NephroBSN
    Many professions from those same countries are clamoring to come to the US. In Russia doctors don't have the status they would in this country.

    America has always been the dream of many people around the world.

    I think many times the influx from other countries doesn't lie in what is happening in the home country but what those people percieve to be their opportunities in the country. Maybe a misconception but still one they think will come to fruition.

    And many times it has nothing to do with nursing. It has to do with freedom and opportunity.

    Many of them struggle to come here but they sure aren't turned away. They only add to "our" numbers. And possibly prove that BSN entry would indeed improve the nursing shortage.

    There is no health insurance in the Phillipines - I don't know about Russia.
    No insurance = no health care = no jobs.
  13. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from subee
    There is no health insurance in the Phillipines - I don't know about Russia.
    No insurance = no health care = no jobs.
    In the Philippines, the hospitals are known to be seriously understaffed, and the positions are seriously underpaid. Much of the same can be said of facilities in Africa, India, Eastern Europe, etal.

    I have heard ratios of 20 patients per nurse, but do not know as far as personal experience

    The USA is under fire from the International community for "stealing" nurses from other nations/continents. They have serious shortages of their own, yet their nurses are coming here.

    Lack of health insurance does not change the fact that people get sick. It merely changes what sort of reimbursement that there may be and how payment occurs. And interestly, in some places, they manage without it. Nursing and medicine did exist before insurance.

    It also does not explain why nations with nationalized health services are losing nurses to the US. Even Canada, with its' Bachelor's requirement, and a shortage of nurses, still loses nurses to the USA.

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