NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 32

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   irishnurse67
    Quote from zenman
    I'm comfortably working with any level. That's not the point. The point is that we "fight" to have the lowest entry level in spite of the fact that we often are the last line of defense between life and death. For that you should have even more education than the person who teaches your kids yet who does not have to make life or death decisions. We also do not realize the value of booklearning. When you finish your BSN you should, if you stay awake in class, have more knowledge to translate into better care at the bedside.

    Almost every course you take should increase your knowledge level and have some bearing on nursing. For example, in ocean kayaking class I learned I had better be prepared; that if it was outside my kayak why worry about it; sometimes I had to work hard and fast, other times I could just cruise; I needed to conserve my energy if I wanted to finished; sometimes you have to relax to survive; and sometimes you just have to take a leak no matter where you are, LOL! Get my point?
    I guess I can see your point re. classes that seem to have nothing to do w/nursing. A class I took about fish made me suspect a patient's problem might be parasitic in nature and the stool for O&P I sent to the lab turned out to be positive! Kind of a gross example, but you get my point! I hate to admit it, I do fall asleep in class, though!
  2. by   lacawanna
    I understand that MI, CT, NJ, and PA have proposals to follow the NY initiative to require RNs to get a BSN within 10 years after initial licensure. I have not found any information about it online so have been unable to verify. Anyone have information about other proposals?
  3. by   RN34TX
    Quote from zenman
    I'm comfortably working with any level. That's not the point. The point is that we "fight" to have the lowest entry level in spite of the fact that we often are the last line of defense between life and death. For that you should have even more education than the person who teaches your kids yet who does not have to make life or death decisions. We also do not realize the value of booklearning. When you finish your BSN you should, if you stay awake in class, have more knowledge to translate into better care at the bedside.

    Almost every course you take should increase your knowledge level and have some bearing on nursing. For example, in ocean kayaking class I learned I had better be prepared; that if it was outside my kayak why worry about it; sometimes I had to work hard and fast, other times I could just cruise; I needed to conserve my energy if I wanted to finished; sometimes you have to relax to survive; and sometimes you just have to take a leak no matter where you are, LOL! Get my point?
    The problem with this theory, IMHO, is that ADN and LPN prepared nurses are failing to see any improved level of performance from BSN nurses.

    Even some BSN nurses themselves will acknowledge being lower performers than their ADN or LPN colleagues.

    The arguement would would be so much more valid if we really could see a significant difference in overall nursing performance from BSN's but most of us do not.

    I've never heard of anyone, other than some BSN's themselves, claim that they perform at a higher level and that the nursing care is a higher quality than what a patient would get from another level of nurse.

    IMHO, by saying that BSN nurses somehow perform at a higher level is just a way to justify their degree. There is much bitterness over the BSN not being acknowledged in terms of pay or status.

    And I'm including myself. I will see very little improvements in my job in terms of pay or status upon getting my BSN.

    I've taken a TON of liberal arts pre-req's to get into the program in the first place and have so far put in a lot of work learning about different nursing theories, advanced pharm and pathophys, and what have you.
    I'll be the first person to say that the BSN is not a few extra fluff classes. It has been a lot of work.

    However, upon graduating with my BSN, after all that extra work, time, and effort, the pay increase will be nothing short of insulting.

    But I'm still in the program plugging way in hopes of it either coming in handy someday, or that the state I happen to be working in decides to demand a BSN for whatever beaurocratic reason.
  4. by   PANurseRN1
    Quote from lacawanna
    I understand that MI, CT, NJ, and PA have proposals to follow the NY initiative to require RNs to get a BSN within 10 years after initial licensure. I have not found any information about it online so have been unable to verify. Anyone have information about other proposals?
    Hmmm...I just renewed my PA license, just got the quarterly newsletter, and nothing was said about this. Sounds like a rumor that needs to be squashed.
  5. by   zenman
    Quote from RN34TX
    The problem with this theory, IMHO, is that ADN and LPN prepared nurses are failing to see any improved level of performance from BSN nurses.

    Even some BSN nurses themselves will acknowledge being lower performers than their ADN or LPN colleagues.

    The arguement would would be so much more valid if we really could see a significant difference in overall nursing performance from BSN's but most of us do not.

    I've never heard of anyone, other than some BSN's themselves, claim that they perform at a higher level and that the nursing care is a higher quality than what a patient would get from another level of nurse.
    I find it hard to believe that additional education and training would not benefit someone. It just isn't logical. You can take any person, say a policement and give him additional education and training and it should make them better at their job. Otherwise there is no purpose in education. Hopefully, I know a little about what I'm talking about as I've been a CNA, LPN, and RN with multiple degrees. Each step led to increased knowledge. Now, that I'm in NP school, I'm still learning what I didn't know previously...and it translates into better patient care and outcomes.

    IMHO, by saying that BSN nurses somehow perform at a higher level is just a way to justify their degree. There is much bitterness over the BSN not being acknowledged in terms of pay or status.

    And I'm including myself. I will see very little improvements in my job in terms of pay or status upon getting my BSN.
    Pay and status is another matter!
  6. by   RN34TX
    Quote from zenman
    I find it hard to believe that additional education and training would not benefit someone. It just isn't logical. You can take any person, say a policement and give him additional education and training and it should make them better at their job. Otherwise there is no purpose in education. Hopefully, I know a little about what I'm talking about as I've been a CNA, LPN, and RN with multiple degrees. Each step led to increased knowledge. Now, that I'm in NP school, I'm still learning what I didn't know previously...and it translates into better patient care and outcomes.
    I never made any statement or reference to increased education not being beneficial to someone.
    I'm talking about NY mandating BSN's for all RN's.
    If the overall performance level of BSN vs. ADN or diploma trained RN's was actually significantly and consistently higher in measurable terms, the idea might meet a lot less resistance from the nursing community.

    In far too many instances in my experience, the level of nursing education achieved does not always reflect the actual performance and quality of the individual nurse.

    If it did, even if only the majority of the time and still not in all cases, I'd have a much easier time being sold on the mandatory BSN thing.

    Whether one chooses one program over the other, and whether one chooses to go to achieve higher degrees should be an individual's choice based on their own needs and abilities rather than being mandated by the state.

    I'm just not seeing mandating higher degrees as any remedy to the nursing profession's problems.



    Pay and status is another matter!
    Yes you are right. It is a different matter.
    Call me shallow, selfish and/or materialistic (perhaps I lived in Dallas too many years and it rubbed off LOL!) but I really need something a little more tangible as a goal than becoming a better or more well-rounded person by finishing my BSN.
    Going from LVN to RN, I immediately saw a big change in terms of career mobility and options. I just hope that I see at least some of that when I finish my BSN.
  7. by   foodguru
    You have no idea what you are talking about. I have sailed through the pre-reqs for entry into both the ASN and BSN programs. You are a prime example of a person speaking on an issue without knowing any details.
  8. by   RNiel
    I agree Bob.
  9. by   NephroBSN
    ..................
    Last edit by NephroBSN on May 22, '06
  10. by   psalm
    ...I haven't read all the many posts so maybe this was mentioned already. But I resent it when people say, oh you're a 2 year nurse.(ADN). My clinicals were 2 years but I took pre-reqs for nursing as well as the required # of electives so I had been in school for close to 4 years. The BSN curriculum includes pre-reqs and electives, does it not? They may have the management and community nursing included that ADNs don't have. Maybe we should look into a different term/name for the ADN nurse that acknowledges the many classes we have to successfully complete our education. NOT everyone can make it!
  11. by   sushiart
    I believe that if Nurses wish to be paid and treated as professionals they need to have a higher standard of education period. I do agree that nurses without a BSN can be great...but the fact of tha matter is this...if we dont do anything to advance our standings professionally where are we left? I am all for grandfathering the established RN's, but all the incoming nurses NEED a BSN, period, to hold some leverage in our jobs, etc.

    Nurses in the future should all have a BSN, or else stay a LPN or CNA and work as such...A BSN allows us to be considered professional and have the background and abilities to indeed support it. A 4 yr degree is not a bad thing...change is good, especially in our case. Dont be a dinosaur and stay a doormat fighting it. Otherwise there are plenty of foreign nurses salivating to get a AS degree and take out more spots on low pay, crap standards, etc....Nurses need to make a stand, and without the "clout" of a BSN college degree and not from some shoddy 2 yr joke, we are not going to make it better for us or anyone in the future. Think of someone else other than you right now, while considering why this change is good.

    A strong case for higher wages and better working conditions will only be solved by 100% of the workforce holding a 4 yr degree and coming together in a soild unified front to fight for better professional pay and standards deserving. Truth is, a AS wont ever cut it as it is, except as a joke amongst those with BS degrees and higher. If you believe otherwise you are naive as they come. Its a cruel place, and we keep sticking our heads in the sand.

  12. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from sushiart
    Nurses in the future should all have a BSN, or else stay a LPN or CNA and work as such...A BSN allows us to be considered professional and have the background and abilities to indeed support it. A 4 yr degree is not a bad thing...change is good, especially in our case. Dont be a dinosaur and stay a doormat fighting it. Otherwise there are plenty of foreign nurses salivating to get a AS degree and take out more spots on low pay, crap standards, etc....Nurses need to make a stand, and without the "clout" of a BSN college degree and not from some shoddy 2 yr joke, we are not going to make it better for us or anyone in the future. Think of someone else other than you right now, while considering why this change is good.

    A strong case for higher wages and better working conditions will only be solved by 100% of the workforce holding a 4 yr degree and coming together in a soild unified front to fight for better professional pay and standards deserving. Truth is, a AS wont ever cut it as it is, except as a joke amongst those with BS degrees and higher. If you believe otherwise you are naive as they come. Its a cruel place, and we keep sticking our heads in the sand.
    And you have worked as a professional RN for how long?????

    Obviously to make such statements, one must be able to back it with some substantial experience...because no one would make such a statement deriding the skills of ADN/AS/ASN unless they have extensive professional experience as an RN to do so. Especially since ADN/AS/ASNs have been "cutting" for decades, and there are not enough foreign "AS" nurses, that can get a green card to work in the USA to even make a dent in the Nursing shortage.

    (Correct me, but don't most "foreign" nurses have to have the equivalent of a four year nursing degree, to be green carded and work legally in the USA)
  13. by   sushiart
    Well look at the sorry state of Nursing and tell me how a BSN hurts the fight to get better wages, etc? Are you afraid of school...the rigors of a 4yr education--God forbid Nursing takes a leap into higher standards for all aspects and not just clinicals, etc... Well...good news, you dont have to worry about it! I am talking about FUTURE requirements, not you. Unless you somehow feel this infringes upon your rights as a AS nurse...do tell me.

    I never said the skills of a AS nurse were bad or under par by any means, I think plenty of then rock and do a fantastic job...just that not having a 4 yr degree and trying to pass as professional in this day and age is a joke to most everyone in any type of power position. One position, in which nurses are not...and will never be without a better barganing chip so to say.

    Try re-reading my post and making an educated reply, rather than a gut reaction one. Thanks. And dont try to pull the high card with "I have done so and so for X yrs" therefore a AS is fine...Thats not what I am getting at.


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