NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 3

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   TinyNurse
    I'm a new adn grad and started a bsn program this fall............ my FIRST day, i mean first hour in class the instructor told the class that ADNs were fading out, and soon it would be all bsn nurses............( i just graduated adn, and wanted to cry, instead i dropped the program and went full force into adn nursing) I live in Ohio.
  2. by   Sheri257
    Quote from beth07
    A good BSN program is NOT lacking in hands on. We actually have more clinical hours than other programs. I'm not at all trying to put down people who have worked hard for their degree, but two more years is nothing to sneeze at. It is hard work. Glad to be here!
    Well, that raises another question. BSNs don't always take two extra years. What about all of these acclerated BSNs that take only one year? Why should that count and not a two year ADN? In a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. There's no previous nursing education.

    As far as BSN clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. But the BSN program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. And, guess what? It's an accelerated BSN that doesn't even require another bachelor's. They squeeze everything into seven semesters.

    I'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. I'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

    There are good and bad ADN programs, just as there are good and bad BSN programs everywhere. But the BSN program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four ADN programs in the area and the national average.

    Should I be forced into a program with a 70 percent NCLEX pass rate just because it's a BSN? Is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? A program where students fail the NCLEX in greater numbers?

    Uh ... I don't think so.

    Last edit by Sheri257 on Apr 16, '04
  3. by   beth07
    Quote from lizz
    Well, that raises another question. BSNs don't always take two extra years. What about all of these acclerated BSNs that take only one year? Why should that count and not a two year ADN? In a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. There's no previous nursing education.

    As far as BSN clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. But the BSN program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. And, guess what? It's an accelerated BSN that doesn't even require another bachelor's. They squeeze everything into seven semesters.

    I'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. I'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

    There are good and bad ADN programs, just as there are good and bad BSN programs everywhere. But the BSN program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four ADN programs in the area and the national average.

    Should I be forced into a program with a 70 percent NCLEX pass rate just because it's a BSN? Is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? A program where students fail the NCLEX in greater numbers?

    Uh ... I don't think so.

    I agree with you, and I actually disagree with what is being proposed in NY. I do think a BSN should be the requirement, just my opinion if we want to be seen as professionals, however, I think going retroactive is counterproductive and unfair to those whose experience already equals a BSN. I much prefer the idea of "grandfathering" those nurses in.
  4. by   clickhere
    Quote from lizz
    well, that raises another question. bsns don't always take two extra years. what about all of these acclerated bsns that take only one year? why should that count and not a two year adn? in a lot of these programs, all you need is another bachelor's in some other unrelated field. there's no previous nursing education.

    as far as bsn clinicals, you may be right about your particular program. but the bsn program in my area is lacking in clinicals, and it's well known in the medical community. and, guess what? it's an accelerated bsn that doesn't even require another bachelor's. they squeeze everything into seven semesters.

    i'm actually not arguing that one is better than the other. i'm saying that each individual program is so different that you can't say for sure what's better on a wide scale.

    there are good and bad adn programs, just as there are good and bad bsn programs everywhere. but the bsn program in my area has a 70 percent pass rate, 15-20 percent less than the other four adn programs in the area and the national average.

    should i be forced into a program with a 70 percent nclex pass rate just because it's a bsn? is that better and actually reaching a higher professional standard? a program where students fail the nclex in greater numbers?

    uh ... i don't think so.

    .


    [font='times new roman']the accelerated bsn program has to complete 128 credit hours to convey the bsn vs. 60-64 credit hours for adn. are you saying that these students took twice as many classes and learned less?



    what about the difficulty of the classes? i have taken classes at a university and several community colleges, and the difference in the quality and difficulty of courses at a university vs. a community college is noticeable.



    [font='times new roman']i almost fell asleep during the community college courses, because there was almost no academic rigor to the courses. the grading was easy, there were few writing assignments and they were short, and the tests required almost no critical thinking the answers to the tests were almost obvious. [font='times new roman']i think that it is obvious that the bsn education is far superior to the adn education.
  5. by   Sheri257
    Quote from beth07
    I agree with you, and I actually disagree with what is being proposed in NY. I do think a BSN should be the requirement, just my opinion if we want to be seen as professionals, however, I think going retroactive is counterproductive and unfair to those whose experience already equals a BSN. I much prefer the idea of "grandfathering" those nurses in.
    Actually, I just realized that I mistyped the number of semesters in the BSN program that I was referring to. It's not seven semesters, it's actually five. Two and a half years.

    I'm not opposed to the BSN requirement, per se. I'm just wondering what a BSN is anymore. If it's the four full years, then yes, that's probably a good idea. But what kind of quality of education are we talking about if it's crammed into two and half or, even, just one year? How much additional clinical experience and education can you possibly obtain in that time frame? How can you be sure that certain things (like NCLEX pass rates and clinicals) aren't falling by the wayside? (Which is what I suspect in the above mentioned program.)

    You can bet that if BSNs become a requirement, these accelerated programs, which are already popular, will probably become even more common. At that point, if you're able to knock out a BSN in one year, what are we really talking about? Is it really more education and training? Or, are we doing this for a fancier title? Because that may be all it boils down to in the end.

  6. by   beth07
    Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.
  7. by   Alnamvet
    Quote from beth07
    Let me just clarify what a bsn is exactly. It is just like any other 4 year professional degree. The first two years are undergrad classes like english, chem, anatomy & physiology, micro, statistics, algebra, history, electives etc.. The last two years are strictly nursing. You begin with foundations, med surg, health assessment etc. and then move on with classes in psych, pedi, ob, critical care, community health etc.. So the last two years each 16 week semester you have your classroom time and clinical time. My week goes like this (I am about to graduate) Monday: Critical care class all morning. Management class in the afternoon. Tuesday and Wednesday: Critical care clinical in a cardiac ICU all day. Thursday: Community clinical at CPS all day. Friday: a class that teaches on the nurse practice act. It is done by a lawyer and includes ways nurses make a difference in the law making process, ways to avoid malpractice etc. So instead of two years including all your math, english and nursing like with a two year degree, it is divided. It really is a lot more clinical hours and I feel like it's been very worthwhile. Just my two cents.

    Then you have the BA, BS, BSW, BPsy, BBA types who go to a 2 year (or 1 year accelerated ASN) program who spends on average of 40 hours per week in clinicals and 16+ hours per week didactic for 50 weeks...same same in my book. When I was a young Naval Officer fresh from Officer candidate school, I used to be amused by the ring knockers from the Naval Academy who thought they were the creme de la creme by virtue of their commissioning source...my reply to these egomaniacs was that it was apparent to me that the Navy could make me an officer in four months, where the Academy pukes took four years to achieve the same goal. BTW, the overwhelming majority of Admirals in the Navy in the last 50 years did NOT come from the Naval Academy.
  8. by   oramar
    Quote from TinyNurse
    my FIRST day, i mean first hour in class the instructor told the class that ADNs were fading out, and soon it would be all bsn nurses...
    I have reported this disconnect between academia and the real world in other post on this subject. It is a rhetoric that educators push at people all the time. The are all so oblivious to how badly they alienate the bulk of nurses. When I went to work on my BSN it was almost like the instructors were reading from a script.
  9. by   orrnlori
    You know, I've been reading here for weeks about this issue of ADN and BSN. Part of the reason there is no concensus among us is that no two programs are even close to being similar. So, here's BSN program #1, pre-reqs are strongly into literature, sociology, and statistics. Here's BSN program #2, it has lots of sciences, chemistry, physio, biology, A&P. Here's BSN program #3, it's got two religion classes and ethics as well as other cross cultural requirements in addition to the sciences. There you have it folks. Until the educators get there act together to determine what is basic, you are always going to have these arguments. In my area of the woods, the from scratch BSN and the from scratch AAS have the exact same number of nursing hours. The sole difference is the liberal arts. My AAS took 80 hours to complete, but I read of programs taking 60 - 66 hours. We are still both ADN's.

    And the point made about accelerated programs is excellent. A BS plus 12 to 18 months and you are out with a BSN. This is all semantics.

    And one other thing, one of the biggest reasons this will not come to pass will be the community colleges will not allow it unless the state govenments are willing to pad their programs well with the money that will be lost if the associate programs are discarded. There's so much more to all of this than just a group of legislators having a TIA and getting confused.
  10. by   NursesRmofun
    Well, well now...that will motivate my *ss! LOL
  11. by   RoaminHankRN
    Quote from 2ndCareerRN
    Good deal. If you want to be treated as a professional, why not require what is considered a professional degree. In just about every field I can think of that is a bachelor's , and in some cases a master's.

    bob
    Fine... but you also need to act like professionals. There are some bad apples in our profession... ASN and BSN. Just having a BSN will not make you professional. I don't hear RN's crying for CE's in every state??? Then there is teamwork, communication, a strong ANA with a voice of one to fight for better pay and safe RN to patient ratios. There is a lot wrong with our profession. Mandating BSN's will not fix things.
  12. by   LKRN
    Everyone is getting in such an uproar! Why not require a BSN as an entry level for RNs?
  13. by   orrnlori
    Quote from LKRN
    Everyone is getting in such an uproar! Why not require a BSN as an entry level for RNs?
    As a master's level trained nurse, I would think you'd have a grasp of the issues concerning the topic.

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