NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 28

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   RN34TX
    Quote from subee
    It depresses me to read some of the comments in this board from people are so anti-education when it comes to a nursing degree. Would you want to be cared for my a MD or lawyer who thought that "booklearning" was a waste of time when it had nothing to do with what they do at work? One doesn't learn to go to college to "do" stuff - you go to become a discriminating thinker. Nursing will always be cheap labor as long as we act like it. However, it would make more sense to keep the ADN programs up and running because too many people have no alternative. However, its not unfair to require the BS in 10 years. Most of the course work can be done on line. NY is grandfathering all present non-BSN RN's. They would be unaffected. We require more degrees from a piano teacher than we do for a nurse caring for our children.
    And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

    I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

    You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

    However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

    I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

    All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

    I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

    Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

    I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.
    I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

    The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

    So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?
  2. by   gina0720
    Quote from smkoepke
    haven't they done this in some midwestern state? does anyone know how it has worked out? is the shortage more severe in that area? has pay gone up? job satisfaction? just wondering about this.....Also any canadians who have been working under the new BSN only statute what are your thoughts?
    in north dakota , in the year 1987 they began to require rn's to have a bsn, those already rn's grandfathered in. Last year they changed the requirements, now rn 's can have a two year degree also. requiring bsn made a shortage worst.
  3. by   pickledpepperRN
    "If you build it, they will come"

    I think if there were more slots in nursing programs at four year universities we would have more BSNs.
  4. by   lindarn
    Quote from RN34TX
    And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

    I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

    You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

    However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

    I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

    All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

    I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

    Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

    I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.
    I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

    The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

    So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?

    The reason that most hospitals do not give any more pay, or differentials to a nurse with a BSN, is because, BSNs don't demand it, and the ADNs and Diploma nurses whine, "but we do the same job, it isn't fair that they get paid more". And the hospitals, allergic to paying nurses more for anything, are more than willing to comply to keep the ADNs and Diploma nurses happy. It is also a matter of "divide and conquer". So the BSNs, leave and go where they can get an investment for their education, make more money, and probably work at less stressful jobs. And the myth continues with that common statement, that a BSN is only for nurses who want to go into management, or grad school, and that they don't want to work in a hospital and do patient care. The truth is they are pushed out of the hospital and bedside nursing. It is a viscious cycle.

    Management would not just automatically decide to pay us more. However, an all BSN staff would cut the number of grads coming out of school. And by the fact that there are less nurses coming out of the pipeline, hospitals would have to work harder to hold onto the ones that they have. Just like the PTs. It is supply and demand. Demand leads to higher pay and respect. No one respects a pushover. And most nurses are pushovers. There is far too much supply of nurses coming out of "ABC Community College" every six months. And not enough incentive for hospitals to make them stay, pay them more and give them better benefits.

    PTs and OTs increased their education levels dramatically. That, in and of itself, decreases the numbers of new ones coming out of the pipeline. The ones who stay and complete the programs are more commited to their profession. They have a lot more invested it in, and are not inclined to work for low wages, and poor working conditions. They have alot more self esteem because they made the effort to complete a Masters or a Doctorate program. They are told by their National Organization just how valuable they are, unlke nurses, who are a dime a dozen.

    In other posts above, or on another thread, the nurses were saying that the hospital made them take the "BSN", off of their nametag, because the patients were requesting to be cared for by only BSN nurses. I would imagine that the ADN and Diploma nurses had their feelings hurt because the patients wanted a BSN for a nurse. Patients don't ask, or seem to care because most of them don't even know that they have that a choice. No one tells them. It seems, with the response at this hospital, that when patients are informed, and given a choice, they do prefer a nurse with a BSN who is more educated. And the care provided by the BSN nurse, for the patients who requested one, must have been satisfactary, or the patients wouldn't keep asking for one. Dispels a couple of myths, doesn't it?

    That is the big fear of the ADNs and Diplomas. That patients will see the difference in the care with more education, and no one will want them as nurses if they are given a choice. The ADNs and Diplomas always say, "why should we get a BSN? There is no difference, the patients don't care, we don't get paid more, so I won't bother.". This experience tells us that yes, patients do care, and would choose the nurse with the higher education level to take care of them if given a choice. I am sure that this scenario gets played out more than we know, but the hospital, and non- BSN nurses, quickly play it down. We wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings, would we? So we remain the lowest educated of health care professionals, and continue to scratch our heads, and ask why. Yes, it does make a difference. Connect the dots, folks.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Mar 30, '06
  5. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lindarn
    The ADNs and Diplomas always say, "why should we get a BSN? There is no difference, the patients don't care, we don't get paid more, so I won't bother.". This experience tells us that yes, patients do care, and would choose the nurse with the higher education level to take care of them if given a choice.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Not always.
    I'm an ADN and I am "bothering" with getting my BSN right now.
    But the pay increase I'll receive upon getting it is downright insulting.
    I'm hoping it's going to open more doors to me in the future, and not in management as I have no desire for that.
    More myths dispelled.

    Of course patients would choose a BSN nurse if made aware of the educational differences and given the choice, especially if they are given the impression that our degrees are our only differences as nurses in the kind of care they willl get.

    When I needed a lawyer, I looked for one that was board certified in the specialty where I needed legal help.
    I also looked for an MD who was board certified in their specialty.
    But there's much more to it than that.
    I also asked former clients/patients about their experiences and inquired about experience in their chosen specialties before making a final choice.

    If a patient/family is given the choice of either an ADN nurse or a BSN nurse, most will choose the BSN because they really don't know any better and are under the impression that the BSN nurse will always be the better choice, because that's about all of the info they have to work with and can't see anything beyond who went to school the longest.
    The one who went to school the longest must be the better nurse, right?

    What they don't know is that the nurse that the family just selected for their loved one in the ICU on a vent and pressors is a BSN who's been an RN for about 6 months and never worked in any type of nursing prior to that.

    The ADN nurse that they rejected in favor of the BSN is a 10 year ICU veteran with her CCRN certification. Prior to that she was a LPN for 10 years in med/surg.

    Now which nurse do you want?
    The public has no clue and it would be easy to convince them that any BSN nurse will always be the better choice.
    It doesn't mean anything.

    I do, however, agree with your theory about supply and demand and "ABC communty college" pumping out new grads every 6 months.
    Hospitals do enjoy that fresh crop of new grads who are so much easier to push around and accept lower wages.
    It makes it so much easier to tell the experienced nurses to get lost if they don't like how things are being run.
  6. by   NephroBSN
    Quote from RN34TX
    And after reading and participating in several of these threads, I'd like to know why anyone who isn't for the BSN as the minimal requirement for entry into nursing, so frequently get labeled as "anti-education"?

    I've seen this "anti-education" label many times over if anyone dislikes the BSN minimum entry theory.

    You are right in that one doesn't go to college "do" stuff, and nursing cannot be learned via hands on experience only. If that were true, then we'd all stay nursing assistants for 10-20 years until we got grandfathered into being RN's without any additional education.

    However, on the flip side, I am truely tired of LPN education being discounted as being a year of merely learning skills and tasks, and that LPN's (or even ADN RN's for that matter according to some), only learn how to "do" something without really understanding why they are doing it.

    I cringe every time someone proclaims that only one category of nurse (RN or BSN) is able to truely "critically think" (the oh so popular current buzzword in our profession and half of us don't even really understand what it means let alone actually do it in practice).

    All I can say here is that nurses who have their mind dead set on believing that unions and BSN minimum entry are the answer to our profession's problems are living in a fantasy land.

    I mention both because they seem to go hand in hand on so many threads here. I see it as pure irony.

    Workers represented by a union screams blue collar by every way imaginable, yet alongside that, so many of us are preaching about bringing our profession up to respectable by the public's standards by making us all become BSN's.

    I don't know about all of you, but the vast majority of my patients and their family members are not exactly doctors and lawyers.
    I have a hard time believing that the 40-something daughter of my patient who works as a cashier at 7-11 is going to change her whole outlook and respect of nurses because we all got our BSN's.

    The majority of hospitals barely give any type of additional compensation for nurses who have their BSN's and most BSN's report being paid either the same or close to the same as their ADN co-workers.

    So how is it that so many here believe that if we all got our BSN's and made it the minimum standard of entry, that our salaries would magically go up and that hospital administrations would suddenly value us more highly?
    Some of us BSN's paid our "dues' as LPN's too. Also, just having put in those four years looks good to a patient. Why not have every RN be a BSN and then patients wouldn't have to choose.

    I dont' think the argument here is BSN or ADN

    I think it's ONE ENTRY into the Profession. Many go on and on here about nurses uniting for the good of all of us. This is something we can do for ourselves all by ourselves. By writing to our congress men and women.

    I think BSN is the only way to go. I think it will help every nurse out there.
    As Linda has stated.

    BTW the Nephrology Nurse Certification requires a BSN, 2 years of nephrology experience and 30 nephrology CEU's just to sit for the TEST.

    Now when you put CNN behind your name it means something.
  7. by   gcja
    the hospital I worked for will pay .80 an hour for bs/bsn. that comes out to $32 extra a week for 40 hours. Over the course of the year I get a wopping $1664 a year. How do you justify the money and TIME you spent on the degree for $1664 a year extra. Sorry guys, but ADN or BSN, an RN is an RN and that in and of itself deserves the money and respect. As a staff nurse, we are both doing the same job and it is one tough job.
  8. by   bahamagirl
    I am a nurse in Canada where it now required to have a degree in the nursing field. However anyone who has graduated before 2005 is grandfathered. It has both pros and cons. I think it will give the nursing profession more of a proffessional face overall but now with everyone who is taking there degree want to move away from the bedside. I think eventually that anyone who would like to do just that will have to have their masters.
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    But has it done what the BSN proponents here want it to>

    No one has answered my questions stated before.

    Those in countries where all BSN is required, do you feel more respected...do you feel you have a valuable place at the "table" where administrative control of nursing practice is discussed and decided???

    ANYONE???
    I am hearing nothing but crickets so far......
  10. by   DusktilDawn
    Quote from SmilingBluEyes
    But has it done what the BSN proponents here want it to>

    No one has answered my questions stated before.

    Those in countries where all BSN is required, do you feel more respected...do you feel you have a valuable place at the "table" where administrative control of nursing practice is discussed and decided???

    ANYONE???
    I am hearing nothing but crickets so far......
    I work in a facility where they strongly recruit nurses from the Philipines, where BSN is a requirement. There is a reason these nurses are so willing to be recruited, the working conditions for them are worse there than it is in the states.

    I still keep in contact with nurses I worked with in Canada. Since BSN became a minimal requirement, nothing has changed for the bedside RN. They are not respected more, they are not valued more, working conditions have not improved. What is happening, and I believe it is happening because hospitals are anticipating less RNs in the coming future, is that the scope of practice for RPNs/LPNs has been expanded. This is what is going on with nursing in the community I live in, in Ontario. I do not however see this happening in Michigan (where I currently work) if a BSN was made as the entry level into practice, since a lot of the acute care facilities have eliminated LPNs. What I do see happening in Michigan if BSN was the entry level, is less RNs on the floor with more UAPs that they will be responsible for. Sorry folks, but my experience with UAPs in general is not good and trust me, you would not want to work like this.

    I work in the states in a facility that heavily recruits Canadian nurses (both Diploma and BSN), Phillipino nurses (BSN), and Americans (Diploma, ADN, and BSN). We all get along and work well together. Whether one has a BSN or not is not an issue here.
    In other posts above, or on another thread, the nurses were saying that the hospital made them take the "BSN", off of their nametag, because the patients were requesting to be cared for by only BSN nurses. I would imagine that the ADN and Diploma nurses had their feelings hurt because the patients wanted a BSN for a nurse. Patients don't ask, or seem to care because most of them don't even know that they have that a choice. No one tells them. It seems, with the response at this hospital, that when patients are informed, and given a choice, they do prefer a nurse with a BSN who is more educated. And the care provided by the BSN nurse, for the patients who requested one, must have been satisfactary, or the patients wouldn't keep asking for one. Dispels a couple of myths, doesn't it?
    That is the big fear of the ADNs and Diplomas. That patients will see the difference in the care with more education, and no one will want them as nurses if they are given a choice. The ADNs and Diplomas always say, "why should we get a BSN? There is no difference, the patients don't care, we don't get paid more, so I won't bother.". This experience tells us that yes, patients do care, and would choose the nurse with the higher education level to take care of them if given a choice. I am sure that this scenario gets played out more than we know, but the hospital, and non- BSN nurses, quickly play it down. We wouldn't want to hurt anyones feelings, would we? So we remain the lowest educated of health care professionals, and continue to scratch our heads, and ask why. Yes, it does make a difference. Connect the dots, folks.
    I only recall one post on one thread about a patient requesting a BSN. Frankly, if a patient request a BSN to provide their bedside care, I would be more than happy to oblige them, my feelings would not in the least be hurt, and I'm sure the BSN nurse would have such a wonderful time taking care of them . I have yet to have patient request a BSN to provide their care. I have yet to be asked whether or not the staff is BSN, ADN, or Diploma. I have however been asked about my experience as a nurse by patients, for example: how long have I been a nurse? This tends to be the most popular question in regards to my qualifications that patients have. As to whether or not to display BSN on a name badge, go for it and display it, because it will not hurt my feelings or in any way make me feel inadequate as a nurse. In fact you should be able to display it on your badge since you've earned it. Your deluding yourself if you think it is Diploma and ADN educated nurses that are holding the profession down. The issues today involving the nursing profession are a lot more complex than simply making BSN the entry level.

    The majority of patients do not understand what nurses do to start with. They have numerous misconceptions and antiquated notions about what a nurse is. I've seen some of the least competent nurses, who actually provided very little care for their patients get glowing praises from those same patients simply because of their social skills. They simply spent a lot of time talking to these patients and the patients seemed to equate this with good nursing care from these nurses. How patients define nursing and nursing care is entirely different from how we as nurses define it.

    At the bedside, I do not see the patients receiving any better care from a BSN educated nurse than they would from a Diploma or ADN educated nurse. Having a BSN will not make any nurse more capable to provide better care for patients if a unit is understaffed.
    PTs and OTs increased their education levels dramatically. That, in and of itself, decreases the numbers of new ones coming out of the pipeline. The ones who stay and complete the programs are more commited to their profession. They have a lot more invested it in, and are not inclined to work for low wages, and poor working conditions. They have alot more self esteem because they made the effort to complete a Masters or a Doctorate program. They are told by their National Organization just how valuable they are, unlke nurses, who are a dime a dozen.
    PTs and OTs only deal with patients one at time, and on a one to one level, which a unit nurse is not able to do. PTs and OTs do not have to deal with every complaint big or small that is not in their job description, unlike unit nurses who have deal with everything from complaints about bad food (don't remember the Cordon Blu cooking class as part of my curriculum), to the TV/phone isn't working (I must have been asleep when they taught electronic engineer section in school). PTs and OTs are allowed to be too busy or not have enough time to see patients, we do not have that luxury, in fact it does not stand up in a court of law as a valid defense for nurses irregardless. PTs and OTs have the NURSES pick up the slack. Their job is not dependent on how well others do theirs, while EVERBODY'S job impacts ours. Patients are
    admitted to hospitals for nursing care, not for PT and OT, it will be the nursing
    care a patient receives that will have the biggest impact on the patient's recovery. Unlike PTs and OTs, nurses have SBONs, state legislation, federal legislations, JCAHO, administrators, everybody and their uncle having a say in how we practice. A BSN entry level in and of itself will not change this.

    Nurses that are still in the profession 1, 5, 1O, 15, 20+ years after graduating, irregardless of whether they are Diploma, ADN, or BSN:THAT'S COMMITMENT, and hardly a dime a dozen.
    I do, however, agree with your theory about supply and demand and "ABC communty college" pumping out new grads every 6 months.
    Hospitals do enjoy that fresh crop of new grads who are so much easier to push around and accept lower wages.
    It makes it so much easier to tell the experienced nurses to get lost if they don't like how things are being run.
    Well apparently ABC community college is not able to meet the demands of hospitals, at least in Michigan, since they aggressively recruit nurses in Canada, in the community I live in. They also seem to be aggressively recruiting in the Phillipines. Irregardless of whether or not you have a BSN, whether or not you have experience, a nurse in this area is not going to have a problem finding a job.
  11. by   chuckc
    I am curious what you all think about the direct entry Masters program nurses? So you can have a B.A. in business, go for an intensive year or so, and come out with a MSN. I don't know that this person is going to be a better nurse than ADN, Diploma nurses, BSN. We all know it takes about 4 years anyway to get that "TWO YEAR" degree . Many of us, myself included, ended up going to ADN because here in California, you have to apply to both ADN and BSN programs, and then go wherever you can get in! THen you can build on that. :spin:
  12. by   zenman
    Take some twins and have one go through an ADN program and one go through a BSN program. When they both have exactly 365 days of clinical, stop and compare them. Now, if it still a logical fact that more education actually means anything at all, who do you think will be the better prepared, more knowledgeable nurse to actually provide bedside care?
  13. by   RN34TX
    Quote from DusktilDawn
    Well apparently ABC community college is not able to meet the demands of hospitals, at least in Michigan, since they aggressively recruit nurses in Canada, in the community I live in. They also seem to be aggressively recruiting in the Phillipines. Irregardless of whether or not you have a BSN, whether or not you have experience, a nurse in this area is not going to have a problem finding a job.
    Excellent post and great points brought up here.
    I see you quoted me and can understand where you are coming from, but this is why I agreed with Linda's "ABC community college" theory:

    A nurse in your area of Michigan may have no trouble in finding a job, as you put it, but I don't think that the problem is the # of jobs available.
    As someone else on this forum stated it, and I can't do it as well as they did, but it went along the lines of that there isn't so much of a nursing shortage as there is a shortage of decent nursing jobs.

    My hospital is a major University teaching hospital that churns out new grads every year eager to take whatever critical care opening is offered to them and agrees to any terms and shifts just to get in the door.

    My point here is that pumping out hundreds of new grads at "ABC community college" and the local univeristy isn't helping the problem either.
    It just gives local facilities a big pool of nurses to go through like water because so many come and go after they see how bad the jobs are that are available to them.
    Nursing isn't the glamorous and dramatic "ER" T.V. show after a good year or so in the field.

    Hospitals welcome new U.S. grads as well as new foreign imports because both are much more likely to accept whatever is thrown at them, be it low wages or unsafe patient assignments.
    And they will continue to do so for a while without complaining. But eventually, they catch on as well, and leave for greener pastures.

    No worries. The hospital's nursing recruiters simply go to another job fair hustling students at the local university or community college, then it's off to Canada and/or the Phillipines for another fresh new crop.

    Hospitals want people they can easily intimidate and push around.
    Seasoned nurses tend to know too much and complain too much.
    They want med/surg nurses willing to take 8 patient assignments with little or no CNA help and they want ICU nurses willing to take 3 open hearts without complaining.

    If that's what you are looking for, then yes, there really is a major nursing shortage with plenty of jobs and the schools can't keep up with the job openings.

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