NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 25

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   lindarn
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Several points:

    - Hillary to be president? - It is hardly likely to happen. And that comes from this nurse that cannot stand King George Bush.

    - Are Nurses seen as appendages of MDs? Not hardly likely. Nurses consistantly are rated much higher on honesty polls than MDs, which demonstrate clearly that the Public views as clearly separate from MDs, and actually somewhat better in some important aspects of caring for them. The vast majority of my patients believe what I say and have greater respect for me than the MD.

    I have found that the only people that really view us as handmaidens, are the older MDs themselves, some Administrators/PR people, some older nurses and the elderly.

    Some of us are seen as professional because we act and work like professionals, and that comes across whether we have special initials on our nametags or not.

    - We are doing 80% of what MDs do? I don't know what MDs you work for, but MDs, much like RNs, are responsible for substantially more than they appear to be doing. As RNs, we have LPNs/MAs/UAPs sayin that they can easily do our job, that they do X% of our jobs, when we know that there is much more to what we do. It is the same sort of arrogancy to say that RNs are doing 80% of what MDs, and ignores the many things that they do.

    - Bachelor's degrees and Master's degree do not mean that we will be paid more as a group, or that it will garner us respect. Ask English/PR/Journalism/Education majors what they get paid, how many hours that they put in and how they are treated compared to nurses. I make more and have more job security than the vast majority of MA/BAs of my acquaintance, work few hours, and don't have to wear heels, or dry clean only clothing. There are English majors, working at Starbuck's or Barnes & Nobles. Teachers, in particular are treated badly, paid poorly, and put in a great deal extra time.
    Then how do you account for the fact that Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc., have always make more money than RNs? They have always made higher salaries than RNs, and their salaries have risen expontentially as they have increased their entry into practice.

    Twenty years ago, their National Organizations decided to increase their educational preparation. They did that solely to increase their worth in the workplace, (when DRGs became the norm for hospital reinbursement), and prevent themselves from being replaced by lesser skilled individuals. It is harder to validate (convince the public) replacing someone with a Masters Degree, or higher, with a HS dropout, than someone who, from the get go, only has one or two years of post HS education. Don't forget, these careers ALWAYS had a Bachelors degree as entry into practice to start.

    They hold onto their professional practice like glue. The PTs are very selective about who and what they delegate their practice skills to. The higher education levels keep the program application and completion numbers low. The hospitals have to wait 8 years for the next class of PTs or pharmicists to graduate. And with a limited group of lesser skilled practitioners to choose from, and allowed to delegate thing to, it is a given that the hospitals have to wait, and work harder to hold onto the grads that they have.

    That is what nurses should be working to emulate. But the overwhelming numbers of nurses who continue to demand, what they feel is their God Given right to remain the least educated of the health care professional, prevent nursing from taking their place in the workplace next to the others.

    I realize that there are a number of nurses who have come into nursing as a second career, and have already gone through school to learn a first career. But that is the price you pay to learn a second career, and is really not our problem. Law is a common second career choice for many individuals. Many business people go into law, as do an increaing number of nurses and doctors. Do doctors ask to go through an abbreviated law school course, because they have already attended medical school for four years? No, they go through the entire three years of law school. So why should someone who already has a career that they earned a Bachelors degree in feel that should not have to earn a Bachelors Degree in Nursing? They even have accelerated programs to accomodate these individuals. Why is nursing the welfare of women's/second careers?

    It comes down to that there is really no good reason not to increase the education levels of nursing, only a plethora of excuses and sob stories. Until it changes, we will continue to remain powerless, at the bottom of the food chain.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  2. by   michellebsn
    I really wish yoiu would look at more than one programs srtucture.Lacking in clinicals is not a fact. our program is heavily based on clinicals.As i said before there is one class in management the rest are clinical rotations or research. Not all BSN programs are the same .
  3. by   michellebsn
    Quote from lindarn
    Then how do you account for the fact that Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc., have always make more money than RNs? They have always made higher salaries than RNs, and their salaries have risen expontentially as they have increased their entry into practice.

    Twenty years ago, their National Organizations decided to increase their educational preparation. They did that solely to increase their worth in the workplace, (when DRGs became the norm for hospital reinbursement), and prevent themselves from being replaced by lesser skilled individuals. It is harder to validate (convince the public) replacing someone with a Masters Degree, or higher, with a HS dropout, than someone who, from the get go, only has one or two years of post HS education. Don't forget, these careers ALWAYS had a Bachelors degree as entry into practice to start.

    They hold onto their professional practice like glue. The PTs are very selective about who and what they delegate their practice skills to. The higher education levels keep the program application and completion numbers low. The hospitals have to wait 8 years for the next class of PTs or pharmicists to graduate. And with a limited group of lesser skilled practitioners to choose from, and allowed to delegate thing to, it is a given that the hospitals have to wait, and work harder to hold onto the grads that they have.

    That is what nurses should be working to emulate. But the overwhelming numbers of nurses who continue to demand, what they feel is their God Given right to remain the least educated of the health care professional, prevent nursing from taking their place in the workplace next to the others.

    I realize that there are a number of nurses who have come into nursing as a second career, and have already gone through school to learn a first career. But that is the price you pay to learn a second career, and is really not our problem. Law is a common second career choice for many individuals. Many business people go into law, as do an increaing number of nurses and doctors. Do doctors ask to go through an abbreviated law school course, because they have already attended medical school for four years? No, they go through the entire three years of law school. So why should someone who already has a career that they earned a Bachelors degree in feel that should not have to earn a Bachelors Degree in Nursing? They even have accelerated programs to accomodate these individuals. Why is nursing the welfare of women's/second careers?

    It comes down to that there is really no good reason not to increase the education levels of nursing, only a plethora of excuses and sob stories. Until it changes, we will continue to remain powerless, at the bottom of the food chain.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    you are so right.Great points.Instead of dissing more education we should be embracing it.Our profession is one of lifelong learning and some of these so called "BS book learnin'" is not a waste.The more educated you are,the more in sync with the Dungan Dynamics which fosus on body,mind, and spirit. the better the care we can provide. :yeahthat:
  4. by   aleigh
    WOOOOOHOOOOOOO for New York!!!!!!!!
    Considering most things start in NY....let's hope this is the latest craze to take off around the nation!
    B.S.N or Bust!!!!!
  5. by   DnNC RN
    There are alot on here talking about how the other professions require a BS for entry level. OK Fine there but look at how many hands on hours these ppl put in with the patients. Nurses are there round the clock doing more hands on care. PT OT the doctors they come in do their thing then go on to the next and come back the next day (maybe) With that said you need more nurses than you need these ppl. Every nursing school in the state of North Carlolina has a waiting list a mile long so if entry level was changed to BSN and in order to practice as a RN you had to go back to get it the average nurse here and in probably about every state in the US would be what? taking care of 40 patients a shift? maybe more? I graduated from a ADN program that ranked in the top five in the state of ALL nursing schools. Also factor in the cost of healthcare already. Do any of you honestly believe that anyone will go for their BSN and pay that kind of money for it so they can work at the average pay scale in place today? It's not about which nurse is better the adn or the bsn. In the end they are the same both are nurses that has the same job to do and that is to take care of people.
  6. by   NYTramaRN
    Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.
    Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

    Paul
  7. by   irishnurse67
    Quote from NYTramaRN
    Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.
    Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

    Paul
    I
    Last edit by irishnurse67 on Mar 27, '06
  8. by   burn out
    Quote from NYTramaRN
    Hey no problem. I'll gladly put my 27 years of expertise on the back burner and go back to school and get more edumacation. While, The patients suffer at the hands of nubee nurse with advanced degrees. They still don't get it: nursing is 1st and foremost a hands on skills profession. Pt care requires the touching of patients, and gets better as your comfort levels and experience increase.
    Geezeus, just what are they smokeing up in Albany

    Paul
    You still have to have the knowledge of where you need to be putting your hands and what to do with them once you put them somewhere and you better be prepared both professionally and legally if you put them in the wrong place--you must have a solid foundation based in knowledge before
    you put your hands anywhere. Do you put something together before you read the instructions?
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    We get that needed knowledge base in ADN programs, as well as BSN ones. I am constantly taken aback at the beliefs held out there by some of you that ADN nurses lack the ability to think critically or perform as well as professional nurses--- as BSN nurses can and do.

    The BSN is definately a great step up and I believe, can be desireable in professional nursing. ( to my thinking so should alternate baccalaureate and master's degrees, however, in related/similar fields/disciplines, like psychology or the like).

    But don't slight the ADN education base----truly it enough to know what we need "to get our hands in there and work". I just wish we could stop this BSN versus ADN thing already.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Mar 9, '06
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from irishnurse67
    I'm really glad that the BSN nurses I work with don't treat me like a second-class citizen just b/c I don't have my BSN yet!

    Anyway, I was w/my sister while she gave birth yesterday. I'm still on cloud nine. Well, the younger BSN nurse who had her as a patient for the first 7 hrs of labor did okay, but as an RN myself, I couldn't help but point out to her that the LR going in to my sister was wide open. Thank God I saw it. Also, after about 3 liters of fluid, I couldn't help but ask if maybe a foley might be a good idea, as my sis hadn't voided in about 6 hrs and her epi had just been started. When she started c/o rectal pressure after just being told she was 100% effaced and 9cm dilated, my BIL and I rang the call bell and in comes a diploma nurse w/30 yrs experience and boy, did she know her stuff! She was incredible! I'm no OB nurse, so I was so glad she showed up!

    I'm just saying that experience is not the only important thing, but it is the most important.
    This person either was very overloaded and handling too much at once or is very much in need of re-orientation to OB. There is so much wrong there, the standard of care was not close to being met.

    Truly, It's got nothing to do with whether her background is BSN or AD or Diploma. That is lousy care, period.

    Oh and congrats on the new baby in your family!
  11. by   LandDRN
    Just a story. They put one of our BSN nurses (we're a pretty even mix here) as charge the other night ( as we were told because of her BSN , mind you she had never even been to/ worked a code.) In a nutshell a critical situation arised and two of us ADN nurses took over and ran the code. The morale of this story is that education doesn't always equal experience either!
  12. by   nyforlove
    I believe that a 4-yr degree requirement will benefit society, patients, and also nurses in terms of employment pay/respect/opportunities...The ADN programs typically require 2+ years anyway w/prerequisite courses and summer work...Also, so many ADNs voluntarily go back for their BS--I admire them for that!---so, I hope we can all pull together and support the Nursing Organizations in supporting this...Certified Public Accountants have done a similar thing over the past 20 years as they worked (and still work) to get states to require a Masters before taking the CPA exam...
  13. by   nyforlove
    You said it well! I hope the Nursing Organizations will push for this.


    Quote from lindarn
    Then how do you account for the fact that Physical Therapist, Occupational Therapists, Pharmacists, etc., have always make more money than RNs? They have always made higher salaries than RNs, and their salaries have risen expontentially as they have increased their entry into practice.

    Twenty years ago, their National Organizations decided to increase their educational preparation. They did that solely to increase their worth in the workplace, (when DRGs became the norm for hospital reinbursement), and prevent themselves from being replaced by lesser skilled individuals. It is harder to validate (convince the public) replacing someone with a Masters Degree, or higher, with a HS dropout, than someone who, from the get go, only has one or two years of post HS education. Don't forget, these careers ALWAYS had a Bachelors degree as entry into practice to start.

    They hold onto their professional practice like glue. The PTs are very selective about who and what they delegate their practice skills to. The higher education levels keep the program application and completion numbers low. The hospitals have to wait 8 years for the next class of PTs or pharmicists to graduate. And with a limited group of lesser skilled practitioners to choose from, and allowed to delegate thing to, it is a given that the hospitals have to wait, and work harder to hold onto the grads that they have.

    That is what nurses should be working to emulate. But the overwhelming numbers of nurses who continue to demand, what they feel is their God Given right to remain the least educated of the health care professional, prevent nursing from taking their place in the workplace next to the others.

    I realize that there are a number of nurses who have come into nursing as a second career, and have already gone through school to learn a first career. But that is the price you pay to learn a second career, and is really not our problem. Law is a common second career choice for many individuals. Many business people go into law, as do an increaing number of nurses and doctors. Do doctors ask to go through an abbreviated law school course, because they have already attended medical school for four years? No, they go through the entire three years of law school. So why should someone who already has a career that they earned a Bachelors degree in feel that should not have to earn a Bachelors Degree in Nursing? They even have accelerated programs to accomodate these individuals. Why is nursing the welfare of women's/second careers?

    It comes down to that there is really no good reason not to increase the education levels of nursing, only a plethora of excuses and sob stories. Until it changes, we will continue to remain powerless, at the bottom of the food chain.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington

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