NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 16

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Suzy, I am fairly certain of this much: if you were Jane Doe from Podunk (and i know you live in a major midwestern city, so it's hard for you to understand)---or you were Ms. Doe's patients, I think suddenly, accessiblity would be a major issue for you!. You see, if it were not accessible for me, I would not be a nurse today. And not to brag, or maybe so, I think that would be nursing's loss more than my own. JMO and yes we do disagree on it. It's easy to say all this sitting in a metro area where universities sit on every other mile marker and compete for students. NOT so where I took my training in rural Oklahoma........and people drove up to an hour just to get an ADN or get to the hospital.

    What is sad to me, is this (all BSN requirement for entry) will likely happen without real thought or viable plan in place, first. I am not against BSN preparation for professional nursing you see. But like I said before, we need to do it smartly. And like so many things, I worry that.....yes I would say poor planning and disenfranchising some worry me a lot.
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 11, '04
  2. by   CougRN
    Quote from Jailhouse RN
    It will not come to pass. BSN programs are lacking in hands on. They center on menagement.....We have enough of them already.....
    give me a break. they don't spend most of the time focusing on management. besides clinicals we spent most of our time learning how to incoporate research into our practice to make us better nurses. i can really see how that is bad, please.
  3. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from PeninsulaRN
    Actually no, its not enough. What is required here is intelligent discourse between professional people, not a throwing up of hands and sentiments remarkably similar to "Screw you guys I'm going home".

    My opinion doesn't necessarily equate with a high horse, either. I merely maintain that education is important.

    So go on thinking I'm posting from an academic ivory tower, if you must. It has already been said in a number of posts the importance of grandfathering in existing ADN nurses so as not to demote them to the level of a practical nurse, and so I'm not taking food from your table by advocating higher education.
    i have not finished reading this thread but felt compelled to respond: i do agree, in a perfect world, that nursing education should be standardized. i have worked with many degreed (bsn and up) nurses and adn nurses. if i'm forced to generalize, i will take the adn nurse hands down BUT that is specific to the nurses i am thinking of. furthermore, there are tons of nurses who educate themselves without being degreed. it is within themself to want to know why, how, rationales, etc. these nurses read on their own time; they explore; they're impassioned and thrive to learn as much as possible. it is not merely a task to us, but it's imperative to understand why you're doing what you're doing. it's no secret that nurses can and are held accountable if they don't question an iffy md order and in order to question, you need a knowledge base. for me, i am a professional learner but i am not degreed. i have also met several degreed people who were superficial, pompous ingrates.
    in spite of having their degrees, they are still not 'professional'. if a bsn is mandated, it certainly better be grandfathered and the current nsg. shortage had better be resolved. the last crisis we need right now is even less enrollment in nursing school. so yes, i am for higher education when it is relevant to nsg. but again, keep in mind, there are many of us that educate ourselves at home and don't feel we need the bachelors to vindicate our nursing capabilities.
  4. by   orrnlori
    Oh, I see. We only generalize when it's to our benefit, such as this degree will make everything rosey for everyone. Okay, I didn't know the rules here. Sorry for the post.
  5. by   leslie :-D
    Quote from orrnlori
    Oh, I see. We only generalize when it's to our benefit, such as this degree will make everything rosey for everyone. Okay, I didn't know the rules here. Sorry for the post.
    what is to whose benefit??? and whose talking rosey? i just mentioned standardization. i don't know, maybe you weren't referring your post to me but if you were, reread it, will ya?
  6. by   orrnlori
    Quote from earle58
    what is to whose benefit??? and whose talking rosey? i just mentioned standardization. i don't know, maybe you weren't referring your post to me but if you were, reread it, will ya?
    No Earle58, it was not to you, sorry. The reply was to Suzy.
  7. by   JMP
    This so-called argument is like banging heads against a brick wall.

    My intention was to enlighten the group regarding BSN as entry to practice and how it has WORKED here.......... what happens? Continued back-biting and moral outrage.....and the same old arguments about WHO makes the bigger, better nurse.

    If you come across a new young nurse who needs help finding something, doing something ( like inserting a foley or finding the "liver") SHOW THEM, TEACH them...... don't roll your eyes and make statements about "how I can't believe it....they don't know ......(fill in blank). Not helpul. Believe it or not gossip, eye rolling, folding of arms are all forms of horizontal violence which stems from oppression.

    Professionalism starts HERE and NOW.
  8. by   Q.
    Quote from orrnlori
    No Earle58, it was not to you, sorry. The reply was to Suzy.

    You honestly can't see the difference between saying:

    "Yes, I believe a Bachelor's degree will help our profession"

    AND

    "ALL BSNs are clinically stupid and the ENTIRE educational system of the BSN needs to be redone because of the 5 GNs I witnessed in my neck o' the woods."

    Um, wow. If that is truly the case, and you seriously think those two statements are equal in their suppositions, over-generalization and are equally insulting in nature, well then unfortunately our discussion, for me, is done.

    Deb, yes I live in a large midwestern city. Now. But I was also raised in PoDunk, Wisconsin and have family that lives in PoDunk, Wisconsin. This discussion about PoDunk is actually interesting because on one hand there's a poster here who feels that nursing education should stop focusing on community health but rather focus on memorization drills, yet at the same time we're worried about who's going to staff PoDunk's hospital. Forget the hospital, and forget the people who want to go to nursing school, what about the rural communities that don't have access to a hospital? Who's going to take care of them? The nurse who knows what side of the body the liver is on? 6th graders know that! But if we don't educate our nurses on community and rural health nursing and do away with it as some people here want, we'll be leaving out an entire population who's main problem is health care access.

    All the more reason, I think, that a BSN is needed in our profession.
    Last edit by Susy K on May 12, '04
  9. by   Erin RN
    Quote from earle58
    i have not finished reading this thread but felt compelled to respond: i do agree, in a perfect world, that nursing education should be standardized. i have worked with many degreed (bsn and up) nurses and adn nurses. if i'm forced to generalize, i will take the adn nurse hands down BUT that is specific to the nurses i am thinking of. furthermore, there are tons of nurses who educate themselves without being degreed. it is within themself to want to know why, how, rationales, etc. these nurses read on their own time; they explore; they're impassioned and thrive to learn as much as possible. it is not merely a task to us, but it's imperative to understand why you're doing what you're doing. it's no secret that nurses can and are held accountable if they don't question an iffy md order and in order to question, you need a knowledge base. for me, i am a professional learner but i am not degreed. i have also met several degreed people who were superficial, pompous ingrates.
    in spite of having their degrees, they are still not 'professional'. if a bsn is mandated, it certainly better be grandfathered and the current nsg. shortage had better be resolved. the last crisis we need right now is even less enrollment in nursing school. so yes, i am for higher education when it is relevant to nsg. but again, keep in mind, there are many of us that educate ourselves at home and don't feel we need the bachelors to vindicate our nursing capabilities.

    This is so true! There are so many nurses out there that graduate and then unless forced to never truly expand on their knowledge base again. I think we have all agreed time and time again (for the most part) that the ADN and the BSN get out of school with nearly identical NURSING knowledge we are not talking about history or general ed here..therefore as far as nursing these individuals are on a even playing field. Which again, we have all pretty much decided is basically ground zero. I think we have all went through the "what am I doing here" on the first day of "real work".

    The real travesty is our profession is that so many graduate and then sit back and don't ask those why, when, where questions. I know we all know these type of individuals. One of my biggest obstacles with the BSN is the fact that additional general ed classes are not going to make me more competent nor more professional. If they do institute the BSN they ouught make the last year a "focus" year much like the MD residency..we can choose an area and have focused study in regards to it...now that would turn out some awesome practitioners in my opinion..of course I am just dreaming here.
  10. by   trent
    I have seen a few discussions about accessibility of BSN training, so I thought I would share my experience in Ontario where the BSN is now the entry to practice.
    In Ontario, community college RN programs are no longer "stand-alone" programs, but have become associated with a university. I have not heard of ANY nursing programs that have completely disappeared, but most have changed their name and the program length to meet the requirements.
    Some BSN programs take place exclusively at universities, some take place at college for 2 years and at university for 2 years, and some take place at college and university concurrently for the full 4 years. From students who had only the choice of BSN to become RNs I have heard very little griping about the length of the program. Some have even told me that they only considered going into nursing because a BSN was offered (mostly because of pressure from parents and high school teachers - "you've got good enough marks to go to university, why consider college?").

    At my school, electives are limited to courses that can help us to specialize if we so choose (psych, women's studies, anthropology, native studies, etc.) - there is no requirement for english classes or physics and most of my classes are designed from a nursing perspective (chem for nursing students focused on acid-base balance, not the structure of organic molecules).
  11. by   trent
    As nurses in the workplace, when you see a student or new grad who is lacking knowledge, please help them to learn AND think about writing to/speaking with the school that they attend(ed). How are nursing programs going to improve unless you let them know where their weaknesses are? I think some constructive criticism is in order.

    Getting off my soapbox now...
  12. by   JMP
    Quote from trent
    As nurses in the workplace, when you see a student or new grad who is lacking knowledge, please help them to learn AND think about writing to/speaking with the school that they attend(ed). How are nursing programs going to improve unless you let them know where their weaknesses are? I think some constructive criticism is in order.

    Getting off my soapbox now...

    Well said. When a resident has a question or not sure how to do something- docs rally round and show-teach-help. It is seen as part of professional responsiblity. Nurses can and should do the same.
  13. by   Q.
    Quote from JMP
    Well said. When a resident has a question or not sure how to do something- docs rally round and show-teach-help. It is seen as part of professional responsiblity. Nurses can and should do the same.
    YES!
    As "professional" nurses, rather than rolling our eyes and then pointing to someone's degree as being inferior, we should be teaching and mentoring. GNs are not robots who are "malfunctioning" when they can't list off anatomical parts correctly who then should be sent back to the manufacturer for repair for cripe's sake. And that's how some of these posts sounds; the robot malfunctioned and the factory that assembled them screwed up. Jeez.

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