NY State may require nurses to obtain 4-year degrees - page 15

But some worry that an already severe shortage will become worse. New York is mulling over a requirement that would force all RNs to earn a bachelor's degree in order to keep their RN... Read More

  1. by   tntrn
    It might have been me, and if it wasn't, I'll agree with who ever did post it. I agree with that. IF nursing education isn't readily available, you're not going to get nurses . Period. And then what?

    And if the nurses you do get are NOT able to hit the floor running, what's the advantage for having an all BSN staff? Someone there has to know how to get things done. I stick to my previous comment that having a BSN does make one a better nurse, a more professional nurse, or more respected. unless you get that message in one of those classes BSN nurses take.
  2. by   JMP
    Quote from tntrn
    It might have been me, and if it wasn't, I'll agree with who ever did post it. I agree with that. IF nursing education isn't readily available, you're not going to get nurses . Period. And then what?

    And if the nurses you do get are NOT able to hit the floor running, what's the advantage for having an all BSN staff? Someone there has to know how to get things done. I stick to my previous comment that having a BSN does make one a better nurse, a more professional nurse, or more respected. unless you get that message in one of those classes BSN nurses take.
    I do understand that this threatens the balance of nursing. However, let me reassure you that change has happened here, students still face long wait lists for seats in the BSN programs...the demand is still great for a spot. We have not faced a shortage, perhaps we will. This argument (who is the better nurse) is exactly why standardized educational requirements make sense.
  3. by   studentrn621
    Quote from tntrn
    all agreed that getting a bsn would not: change the way we do our jobs, change our pay for the better, or increase the amount of respect we get from anybody. what we did agree on was that if a bsn becomes required, the nursing shortage will be far more critical than it is now considered, not only because fewer people will go into or be able to go into nursing, but most especially if current rns's are not exempted in some way, they will be finding something else to do.
    i don't think that this would make the nursing shortage more critical at all. bsn programs in my area are getting a large amount of applicants. one particular university got 800 applications for 180 seats. unfortunately, there just isn't enough educators out there right now so that the schools can take in larger classes. nursing is really big right now in my area and i just can't see people losing interest if a bsn is required.

    and that whole thing about turning out bsn's that can hit the ground running. are you saying that all diploma and adn nurses are just ready to go? i don't think you are being far with that comment. you're way over generalizing here.
  4. by   tntrn
    I think ADN and diploma nurses are "readier" to go. I can think of 4 BSN new-grad residents we've had in the fast 5 years who didn't know the importance of I and O. At all. Never mind in relation to the labor patient who'd had an epidural in for several hours.

    Of course, there are exceptions always. But in my experience that's what I've seen. No, I don't ask them where they were trained. They usually are really vocal about that.

    The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.
  5. by   JMP
    Quote from tntrn
    I think ADN and diploma nurses are "readier" to go. I can think of 4 BSN new-grad residents we've had in the fast 5 years who didn't know the importance of I and O. At all. Never mind in relation to the labor patient who'd had an epidural in for several hours.

    Of course, there are exceptions always. But in my experience that's what I've seen. No, I don't ask them where they were trained. They usually are really vocal about that.

    The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.
    Please please please listen to this: No one is forced to DO ANYTHING. NO ONE has to go back to school...... NO ONE has to change. The system will change. You can still work. You can still think it is strange some nurses don't know how to do basics. No program is perfect. BSN will not HURT you or anyone else........I promise! It has come here ....it is entry to practice and we have all survived.
  6. by   Q.
    Quote from tntrn
    The nursing shortage will be more severe if all of us who would be forced back to school quit. That's a big bunch of nurses--potentially gone.
    I don't forsee that happening.

    Your argument is that because being an RN will mean having to have a Bachelor's, we will have no nurses. Does that same requirement seem to stop people becoming NPs? Docs? Pharmacists? Lawyers? Journalists? Statisticians? Are they all facing "shortages" because a 4 year college degree is required?

    The nursing profession is already faced with a mass exodus of baby boomers eventually. While I think that there will be an initial shortage while new ones are being trained, overall I think nursing will actually be more attractive and see an increase.

    I DO think your comments about BSN grads are somewhat judgemental and very blanketed; actually insulting in a way. It would be no different than if I said the majority of ADNs I see, while they can recite by rote why I&O's are important, they literally are laughed out of meetings because their speaking skills, language and writing abilities are substandard that as a profession we're not taken seriously.
  7. by   tntrn
    I'm sure the writing skills of any group can come into question. Like I said, I and many of the ADN nurses I know, have many university credits in English, writing, foreign languages and many other subjects. We've just chosen to concentrate on the nursing part of our skill for the purpose of the job we choose to do. Nursing skills, on the other hand, are a vital necessity to be a nurse. Writing skills, and speaking in meeting skills, are less important. Meetings in general, are things I try to avoid. I'd much rather be on the floor, tallying up I's and O's.

    Per capita, I'd say the need for nurses is far greater than the need for NP's, Pharmacists, and especially lawyers.

    And even though a BSN wasn't required in Canada, doesn't mean some person somewhere won't try to require it in NY or other places. It's not over until it's over

    I'm off to work now: where I will be professional, speak eloquently and chart perfectly
  8. by   Q.
    Quote from tntrn
    I'm sure the writing skills of any group can come into question.
    Just as the beginning nursing skills of any new grad can come into question. My point is, generalizations are rarely taken seriously. And shouldn't be used in a debate.

    Regarding the per capita need; so, based upon that argument, professional standards are set based upon 2 things: ease of attainment and need of said profession in society. I just don't agree with using those benchmarks for setting our standards for practice.

    As far as meetings or being able to do anything besides adding up I&O's; before you scoff off meetings or other areas where writing and speaking correct English are important, remember that it's in those meetings where decisions regarding OUR OWN PRACTICE are made. I don't know about you, but I'd sure like to be at the table for that.
  9. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from Susy K
    This argument saddens me. This is moreso related to the comment (and wasn't sure if it was you or Deb or...?) that nursing schools need to change things and pump out RNs that can walk onto a floor and take a patient load. I mantain that is a huge disservice! I may sound crass, but the belief that that is what schools should do stems from a purely selfish mindset. Nursing education is not a factory that pumps out robots! And nor are we robots who just do tasks!

    Again, should professions determine professional standards based upon what is the easiest, most attainable credential for the public to get? (and by easy I don't mean "easy" intellectually; I mean easy as in accessibility) Is that really what we want dictating our standards?
    No, it was not me who said that, Suzy to which you refer, but let me address another part of your post here:

    In a critical area such as nursing, where vacancies are in double digits in some areas, I DO ARGUE "accessibility" BETTER be addressed if we do go all-BSN. Have you ever worked in the rural setting? Or in an area so critical for nurses? If so, you know what I mean by this. This shortage is not ending any time soon---demographics make it such---- and so yes, programs to train new nurses to replace the thousands set to retire within the next 10-15 years BEST be available and ACCESSIBLE.

    I don't get it, Suzy ....you and I have gone around about this before: What problem do you have with accessability????? I did not say dumb down the career; I said make it so people can access the training. There are a lot more nurses than there are Pt'S , OT'S, MD's RT's Pharmacists, etc. And darn straight, we are losing them at very high rates. We can't make comparisions to medicine or other disciplines; nursing programs need to be widely available and easy to access if we are to put a dent in this and future shortages.


    What is it you have against making it easy to access education for future nurses? Why make it more cumbersome or harder than it is? It's already hard enough to find a program, gain entry, after waiting up to 2 or 3 years to get in, and then graduate. The attrition rates are horrible. NO one IS DUMBED down who enters nursing, surely you agree. But to make it harder to access programs? Come on now, Let's don't shoot our noses off to spite our faces!uhoh21:
    Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on May 11, '04
  10. by   orrnlori
    Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks, wrote extensively (memos to manuals) and was use to speaking before groups of 10 to 100 every month or so. And I did that with nothing but a little old high school diploma, never went to college until I was 39.

    I truly have nothing against higher education, I'm completing my bachelor's and have applied to a MSN program. What I have a problem with is the inconsistency in nursing education from college to college and the barriers that are thrown up to get the degrees in terms of the curriculum, not to mention the costs involved. If the BSN truly gave more in terms of nursing education, I would welcome it. BUT IT DOESN"T!!!!. It's just more general education classes before you get to the nursing classes! How does that make one a professional nurse?

    I precept students in the OR and this last semester I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies. They have to KNOW how to be a nurse before they go to their meetings. I'm sure there are many fine programs that turn out excellent BSNs. I've been precepting for 4 years and I've seen pretty strong deficiencies in the basics in the bachelor programs I'm involved in. There is a problem with the system and I can't jump on board this train until I see those problems resolved.

    I will support the issue of BSN as entry level when they make all programs consistent and when they make it more about nursing than management and community health. When they do that, I will be in total agreement with you.
  11. by   Energizer Bunny
    I've said it once and I'll say it again...If it weren't for the ADN program, I would never even be able to become a nurse. I think that would be the case for many people. I don't have the luxury of time and I would choose a different career, even though I wouldn't like it, that I could complete in 2-3 years.

    I still don't get why there is this big commotion if we all take the same boards. They are critical thinking, correct? and are supposed to show if we are really ready to be nurses?
  12. by   Q.
    Quote from orrnlori
    Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks...
    Yes, yes, yes. I wasn't really interested in your resume, but the point which you seemed to have missed was about generalizations. Generalizations are just that: generalizations which, in my opinion, have no place in a true debate. I was using the writing skills and a 4 year degree to point out the parallel stance that has been repeated in this thread about BSNs being clinically stupid.

    So, yeah. Puuuuuullllease is right.

    I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies.
    So, you're basing the entire nursing education system on, lemme see, 5 GNs? And you think the soul of nursing is memorizing things? Again, sorry, but I wholly and completely disagree. Nursing, at least to me, does not lie in tubes and needles and does not lie in reciting by memory anatomical parts. And community health? What do you have against community health? Certainly not my personal cup of tea either, but there are patients out in the community health area and nursing practice actually is the most autonomous in that area.

    And Deb, yes I know we've been down this path before about accessibility. And it's not that I'm trying to make it "harder" or that I think it will dumb down the education. My stance is that I just don't see the validity to making requirements and standards decisions about a profession based upon if Mary Jane from PoDunk, Nowhere can get to the university.

    It's something we'll just have to agree to disagree on.
    Last edit by Susy K on May 11, '04
  13. by   Erin RN
    Quote from orrnlori
    Okay, so I guess no one can write effectively or speak correctly unless they've completed 4 years of college? Puuuullllease! I was an Assistant Vice President at several banks, wrote extensively (memos to manuals) and was use to speaking before groups of 10 to 100 every month or so. And I did that with nothing but a little old high school diploma, never went to college until I was 39.

    I truly have nothing against higher education, I'm completing my bachelor's and have applied to a MSN program. What I have a problem with is the inconsistency in nursing education from college to college and the barriers that are thrown up to get the degrees in terms of the curriculum, not to mention the costs involved. If the BSN truly gave more in terms of nursing education, I would welcome it. BUT IT DOESN"T!!!!. It's just more general education classes before you get to the nursing classes! How does that make one a professional nurse?

    I precept students in the OR and this last semester I've had all 4th year BSN students who couldn't even give me the basics, like on which side of the abdomen the liver is located. Shouldn't they know this? I had 5 in a row that didn't? You can call that a blanket statement if you chose, I call it a deficiency in education needed to be a nurse that I've experienced first hand over the last few months. They may write beautifully, but that's not where the soul of nursing lies. They have to KNOW how to be a nurse before they go to their meetings. I'm sure there are many fine programs that turn out excellent BSNs. I've been precepting for 4 years and I've seen pretty strong deficiencies in the basics in the bachelor programs I'm involved in. There is a problem with the system and I can't jump on board this train until I see those problems resolved.

    I will support the issue of BSN as entry level when they make all programs consistent and when they make it more about nursing than management and community health. When they do that, I will be in total agreement with you.

    I agree with you wholly on this post and I DO see the importance of a nurse knowing where anatomical parts are located...It wouldn't matter if an individual had a PhD in nursing if a MD were aware that this nurse did not know basic anatomy and physiology no degree in existence would make him or her a professional in the eyes of the higher ups. I also see Suzy's point about broad generalizations and agree that they aren't credible when looking at entire profession but by the same token the broad generalization that the BSN will provide us the "professional" title we all seem to need so badly isn't all that credible either, this problem is multi faceted, in my opinion.

    I agree with Deb regarding access to education and in my opinion there is just no way you can compare nursing with journalism, law or medicine just based on the sheer numbers of nurses required in order for our healthcare system to survive. I do think that Jane Doe from Podunk wherever needs to be taken into consideration..chances are there are several hundred other people (patients) living right there with her. Who is going to staff that little community hospital?

    There was another poster here who indicated if we all take the same boards why not make the entry level BSN? We could look at this from the opposite as well..if we all take the same boards and ADNs and Diploma nurses have managed to pass them and go onto rewarding/ competent careers in nursing why do we NEED to make the BSN mandatory?

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