Nurses being forced to go back to school

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 20, 2014

This reply is partially a vent, partially an honest question with a longish preface. To be clear, I am working on my BSN now, I am not anti-intellectual, and I do not buy into the false dilemma of street smarts vs. book smarts. But perhaps this helps clarify why the frustration over needing that BSN.
The introduction of my RN-BSN program was a nursing theory class, the foundation of "professional" nursing. Our faculty have one pet theory so we only learned about that one theory, vs. an overview of all the prominent nursing theories. This particular theory heavily integrates new age spiritual practices and concepts; in fact, the text included references from Deepak Chopra (which, side note, was extremely uncomfortable for me as a Reformed Baptist to sit through. I'd love to have heard a lecture on the effectual call...it has about as much to do with nursing as Deepak lol!!) For one of the classes towards the end of the semester, our instructor brought in her diving rods and showed how she used them to find where the energy in her yard was most optimal to build her labyrinth. She showed us a photo of herself that somehow captured her aura. We learned about chakras and qi.
Here's a snippet from the book: Modeling and Role Modeling: A View from the Client's World, edited by Helen Erickson.
"The relationship between nurse and client can also be expressed in terms of an energy field. Watson (1999), one of health care's key leaders in holistic nursing, stated that when the nurse if sully present with the client, nurse and client connect on an energetic level, creating what she describes as a Caring Field, a new field of consciousness and possibilities. She states, 'The transpersonal caring field resides within a unitary field of consciousness and energy that transcends time, space, and physicality (unity of mind-body-spirit nature universe)"...Nurses can influence the caring field through their intentions, actions, thoughts, and feelings. Edwards proposes that healing occurs when a resonance is set between the client and healer as they meet in The Field."
Uh....
And then, the only actual science class required as part of the BScienceN completion program was patho...which was SO much less rigorous than the patho I took for my ASN because these tests are all online and open book. I have not had one proctored exam since beginning this program.
Which brings me to my question. What type of education would better demonstrate our ability to be a well-rounded higher-educated individual? The ability to BS one's way through Nursing By Deepak, or the ability to get an A or a B in o-chem or upper level biology? Why Deepak, and why not advanced bedside classes such as (making up courses here) Hemodynamics in Critical Care, or Neurological Aspects of Pain Management?
That's what I personally find frustrating.

Wow! Funny and kooky! Energy fields, very sci fi! Sounds entertaining at the very least! Can honestly say I never heard of this version of nursing theory before. Did it talk about creative visualization too?

What nursing program are you going thru? Was this an online class?

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 20, 2014

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I think we "should" be kicking out people with decades of experience; but what you, I, or anyone else on this board thinks doesn't really matter. The bottom line is that employers can do it, and a growing number of them are doing it. We can disagree with that until the cows come home, but that doesn't change anything.

This coercive behavior by management like the flu vaccine mandation is one of the many reasons I don't recommend nursing to others! Who needs this kind of rude, coercive treatment where a person's rights over their own body are being trampled on. Did you get the vaccine newsletter talking about the slight possibility of serious injury or death, but don't worry, it's just like anything else in medicine! Really! At least with other medicine or treatments we can make an informed choice if we want to take the risks. Also not true that any medicine can kill you! I just wonder how many cases of GB we are going to be seeing now that flu vaccine mandation is sweeping the nation's hospitals!

FlyingScot, RN · Sep 21, 2014

This coercive behavior by management like the flu vaccine mandation is one of the many reasons I don't recommend nursing to others! Who needs this kind of rude, coercive treatment where a person's rights over their own body are being trampled on. Did you get the vaccine newsletter talking about the slight possibility of serious injury or death, but don't worry, it's just like anything else in medicine! Really! At least with other medicine or treatments we can make an informed choice if we want to take the risks. Also not true that any medicine can kill you! I just wonder how many cases of GB we are going to be seeing now that flu vaccine mandation is sweeping the nation's hospitals!

I don't think this is the appropriate thread to opine about the flu vaccine. There are plenty of threads available for you to do this.

This topic is too important to be de-railed.

brandy1017, ASN, RN · Sep 21, 2014

I don't think this is the appropriate thread to opine about the flu vaccine. There are plenty of threads available for you to do this.
This topic is too important to be de-railed.

It is a larger symptom of the coercive unprofessional way nurses are treated. Just more evidence of the same if you ask me! Both actions reveal the same mentality of management toward nurses! I'm sure we could list myriads of others, but this is what is on my mind at present as September starts flu vaccine season and so many of us face our yearly deadline to get stuck! I'm sure I'm not the only one ****** off about this!

subee, MSN, CRNA · Sep 21, 2014

Nurses with 30 years of experience have had 30 YEARS to get their BSN. Just because you've managed to keep your job so far doesn't mean that you don't have to read the tea leaves. The prediction was out in the open. It was in every nursing journal. It was in your face. You just start taking one or two courses at a time and just get it done. And they make it so easy, anyone can do it!

Esme12, ASN, BSN, RN · Sep 21, 2014

Nurses with 30 years of experience have had 30 YEARS to get their BSN. Just because you've managed to keep your job so far doesn't mean that you don't have to read the tea leaves. The prediction was out in the open. It was in every nursing journal. It was in your face. You just start taking one or two courses at a time and just get it done. And they make it so easy, anyone can do it!

Let me be clear...I have my BSN. My employer paid for it I took it. I had a very successful career without it. But what if I didn't? I have one child that started college and another to follow in the fall of next year. I am a late bloomer and can't take on more debt for my job is to ensure my children have good jobs for the future....and so they can care for me when I am old...LOL. My job is to ensure my children can care for themselves when I am gone. Tell me how a bunch of online courses will somehow magically improve my practice at the beside? Or that the lack of one has suddenly rendered me incompetent?

I think it is despicable that nursing can so easily toss seasoned professionals aside. IMHO it is shameful. The facilities motivation has NOTHING whatsoever to do with "improving patient care" and "better outcomes for the patients" If they really did care they would stop being so passive aggressive about it for 30 years and make BSN entry only and offer some assistance in bettering the patients outcome and care.

But no! They actually couldn't care less. They are influenced with profits and revenue for the academic institutions and their accreditation/magnet/academic revenue generating personal retirement funds. They are looking at cutting overall costs by getting rid of the seasoned and high paid staff. If they really wanted to improve patient care they would invest their 6 figure bonus to an education fund to assist those nurses in improving the patient care through education. If they really cared they would try to keep the seasoned staff to train and guide new nurses.

I'm sorry I have spent far too much time behind the administration doors to believe that this is anything but a cost saving, money generating, venture to increase their personal bank accounts and retirement funds.

NicuGal, MSN, RN · Sep 21, 2014

And that fashion history course several of my co-workers are taking for their BSN will be so useful on the floor lol. It is too bad that these programs can't come up with some better courses, more geared towards healthcare.

elkpark · Sep 22, 2014

And that fashion history course several of my co-workers are taking for their BSN will be so useful on the floor lol. It is too bad that these programs can't come up with some better courses, more geared towards healthcare.

People always bring up this kind of issue in this kind of discussion. Yes, completing a BSN requires completing additional general ed/elective courses that are not directly related to nursing but are directly related to completing a baccalaureate degree (in anything). Part of the point of a baccalaureate degree is a (reasonably) well-rounded general education. That's the difference between a degree and a tech/voc education.

And people who care can make the choice to find courses that do relate -- one of the best, most useful courses I took in my BSN completion program was a course in healthcare economics, offered by the university's economics department, not the nursing school. It wasn't part of the BSN completion curriculum, it counted as a general ed elective; but it sure did relate to and enhance my nursing knowledge. Like most things in life, what you get out of education is largely a matter of what you put in to it.

LadyFree28, BSN, LPN, RN · Sep 22, 2014

People always bring up this kind of issue in this kind of discussion. Yes, completing a BSN requires completing additional general ed/elective courses that are not directly related to nursing but are directly related to completing a baccalaureate degree (in anything). Part of the point of a baccalaureate degree is a (reasonably) well-rounded general education. That's the difference between a degree and a tech/voc education.
And people who care can make the choice to find courses that do relate -- one of the best, most useful courses I took in my BSN completion program was a course in healthcare economics, offered by the university's economics department, not the nursing school. It wasn't part of the BSN completion curriculum, it counted as a general ed elective; but it sure did relate to and enhance my nursing knowledge. Like most things in life, what you get out of education is largely a matter of what you put in to it.

THIS.

Most of my electives were ones *I* CHOSE to directly benefit the business I was entering in; whether it be hospital economics, another science course, or IT courses to understand programs and technology; that's the beauty of higher education as an adult, you can be empowered to choose what you need and the knowledge will be beneficial. :yes:

NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN · Sep 22, 2014

And that fashion history course several of my co-workers are taking for their BSN will be so useful on the floor lol. It is too bad that these programs can't come up with some better courses, more geared towards healthcare.

I actually had a discussion with a very spry elderly patient a few weeks back regarding our nursing attire. It was a bonding moment when the topic of nursing caps came up. The conversation ranged from modern-day Greys Anatomy uniforms (which I was wearing in royal blue and black with obviously no cap) to the days of nursing in the 1800s where the nurse was the local go-to widow who had a wealth of abilities and wrought iron pot of boiling water (my contribution to this portion was what I had seen on Little House on the Prairie as a little girl).

I've found that sometimes we have to talk about other things first, before our patients are ready to listen to 'medical hogwash' that we are about to start spewing (got that word from that same patient) out at them. Basically, I had to travel back to the 1800s and link those times to that cup of pills that I had been holding in my hand for 30 minutes just to get her to take her medications.

applewhitern, BSN, RN · Sep 23, 2014

The problem some nurses face with going back to school is that schools want you to take a certain number of credits with them in order to graduate you. I already had a degree; I already had TONS of non-nursing credits, because I already had degrees in accounting and business, meaning I already had plenty of management, economics, etc. type classes. I already taught at a business college. Then I went back for a BSN and had to take the silliest classes. Sorry, but they were a joke compared to what I already had. But, I had to take a certain number of credits with them in order to graduate from that school with a BSN. If the courses were changed to something worthwhile, I would feel differently, but as it is, I feel like it was money down the drain that could have been spent for something else. Most of the hospitals in my area do not pay for anyone to go back to school; not everybody has that luxury.

OCNRN63, RN · Sep 23, 2014

It is unfortunate you and many others are being put in this position. Many of those who already have their BSN have no sympathy because of the mentality if they did it so should you. The ANA would support nurses better if they stood up for no lift environment and safe staffing ratios, not magnet status and 80% BSN by 2020! Where were they when we were forced to use regular needles when safe needles were available. It took ten years and an Act of Congress to get hospitals to provide safe needles!
At the very least the ANA should be advocating for hospitals to fully reimburse RN's being forced to get their BSN! Also their should be a significant difference in pay for BSN RN's if this is so all important! Where I work there is absolutely no difference in pay! The only place I know that actually pays for a BSN in both tuition reimbursement and pay is the VA!
As far as it being cyclic in the past is was telling LPN's they had to get an RN or they would be let go. They were not RN's. It is not the same thing as telling an RN they are not good enough when they are already RN's and doing the same thing they would be with a BSN.
But that said, there is really not much you can do about it unless you are able to find another job that is satisfied with your ADN. Where I work they still hire ADN's, but other hospital systems either require BSN or some make getting a BSN a condition of your continued employment in the job offer. Your best bet is finding a union job because at least you will have some say in your working conditions and if BSN is mandated a better chance of getting true tuition reimbursement.
I would look at all your options and choose the cheapest probably online program you can find. WGU appears to be one of the cheapest, you pay a flat fee I guess it's around $6,000 year and some can get their BSN in 6 months to a year. It depends how much time and energy you devote to getting all the necessary classes done.
I don't know about your public university, but where I live it is more expensive and lots of hoops to go thru like calculus and foreign language. I actually did take a couple languages in the past, but who knows they may not count them as so much time has passed. I see they are now offering a true online option and charging much less, comparable to WGU and seem to be copying WGU. Maybe they are doing the same thing where you live. Personally I wouldn't want to go thru a clinical for a BSN, I think the only program without a clinical is University of Phoenix, but I'm sure they cost a fortune and don't even advertise their tuition rates, plus I hate the thought of supporting a for profit university!
Whatever you decide to do fill out the FAFSA and use govt student loans if possible as private student loans have higher interest rates and no flexibility in repayment. At least govt loans have income based repayment if something happened and you lost your job or were too sick to work. There is a modest student loan interest rate credit, but if you have a house you would probably be better off considering a home equity loan or line of credit as that interest is probably less than what the govt loans would be and is fully deductible. Plus there is a lifetime learning credit for tax purposes. Consider all your options before making your decision.
I personally am saving my money for retirement and maxing out my Roth IRA as it can be an emergency savings, esp if you don't have a lot of home equity. I'm hoping to make it to retirement without going back to school, but only time will tell if it works out.
Personally there are so many things about nursing that **** me off, that the thought of spending more money for a BSN only adds to the aggravation. I'm sick of this we are professionals, really then why do we have mandatory overtime, wiping buts and breaking our backs, scripting, vaccine mandations and on and on, down to micromanagement re timeclock and computer charting! Nursing is so overrated it isn't funny! If they wanted educated professionals then they would let the CNA's be the CNA's and not expect the nurses to be the same!

I am going to a state university program. There is no clinical and there are no pre-reqs like calculus, chemistry, etc. I went to a diploma program; I was accepted and went right into the nursing courses. I was told they do not require all of the gen. ed. courses many programs do. (I did take several gen. ed. courses over the years when I was working on my BSN off and on. It's a good program with a good reputation; cost is a little over 1K per course. I'm only taking one course at a time since I'm not working and have no tuition assistance. They also allow you to pay your tuition in installments, which really helps.