higher pay for BSN grads? - page 3

Quick poll here... Does your hospital pay BSN nurses more? If yes, how much? If no, what are your thoughts on this? On a side note: Does Magnet status tie into BSN nurses?... Read More

  1. by   RN34TX
    Quote from lindarn
    If nurses were rewarded significantly for earning a BSN, then nurses would be flocking to colleges to earn it.
    So true.
    Even with my employer's free, no money up front for anything, flexible on-site and/or online BSN and MSN educational offerings, they still do not have nearly enough employees (for what they are budgeted) wanting to pursue it and put posters up everywhere in the hospital asking nurses to take advantage of the program, yet so few are doing it.

    It was all for getting Magnet status, nothing more. If employers truely valued, respected, and were impressed by BSN prepared nurses, it would show on their paychecks.

    The bonus for them is the lack of power and weakness of the profession that stems from our constant bickering and disagreement over educational standards as well as our usual floor vs. ICU vs. ER disagreements as well.

    They count on us not sticking together and looking out for one another.
    It keeps us weak as a profession and keeps our wages down.
  2. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from maryshome8
    But for regular staff nursing positions, there was no pay difference between an RN and an ASN for a new grad.
    ASN/ADNs ARE RN's.

    And you haven't contradicted me anywhere.

    Yes, BSN is a 'better' degree if you want to go into management and other similar opportunities. I never said otherwise.

    In fact, I HAVE said that we should be pushing towards BSN. I just disagree that is should be mandatory as an ENTRY LEVEL.

    I disagreed w/ the claim that BSNs make '2 dollars more an hour' than ADN at the bedside. I doubt this is true. I don't think that poster lied; I think he probably had some HR snow blown at him.

    Your assessment concurs with that, so I don't see how you use it as the basis to refute my comments. . .

    You won't find me criticizing a BSN degree. I think it should be where we are going. BUT. You also won't find me cutting off not only the non-traditional opportunities, but the proven educational excellence of an ADN education when it comes to both NCLEX pass rates AND bedside care. Especially since the rationale for doing so is completely dubious.

    And as one non-BSN bach degree to another: many of your BSN counterparts will NOT consider your psych degree to be an 'equivalent' degree. I DO believe that some of what drives this issue is academic elitism. If you don't have a BSN, you are NOT in that club.

    I've said this before: the reason I have a biology degree instead of a BSN is because the University in my community didn't offer BSN at the time. And, my aggie ring provides me with MUCH more respect than the initials behind the initials behind my name.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 21, '06
  3. by   ern91
    The hospitals in which I've worked hired all GNs at the same hrly rate. Raises were given based on the scores of annual performance evaluations. Management positions held by both ADN and BSN degreed nurses.


    Iv'e experienced horrible managers with so many letters behind their names they almost needed two badges..... I've had great managers with ADN degrees only.

    It took me 4 years to get my ADN because I started later in life(30's), I was married with 2 young children and had to work while in school,I couldn't afford the tuition at a 4 yr university . I had no desire to go into management and still don't because of the politics involved. I make good money, more than my supervisors because I get a shift diff and overtime. In fact, I recall several nurses telling me the downside of the management position they accepted was a decrease in pay.

    The staff nurses I've worked with didn't care if their fellow nurse had an associate's degree or a bachelors degree. We all did the same job. There are alot of BSN nurses out there who learned how to be nurses from ADN's


    I can just imagine the animosity and resentment among nurses if it becomes standard practice to pay more for someone's ability to get a higher degree,
    then have them work alongside someone busting their butt just as hard (or harder) and getting paid less. There are too many issues already that divide the nursing profession without adding another
  4. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from ern91
    I can just imagine the animosity and resentment among nurses if it becomes standard practice to pay more for someone's ability to get a higher degree, then have them work alongside someone busting their butt just as hard (or harder) and getting paid less. There are too many issues already that divide the nursing profession without adding another
    What we are talking about here is education and experience. Experience is worth more, because it's a form of education. Education should be worth more, as well, and in its own right.

    I don't think it will cause animosity and resentment, any more than being paid more for having 10 yrs experience over being a new grad should cause animosity and resentment.

    There are advantages to BSN. We should be embracing those advantages. Not to the exclusion of ADN, because ADN has proven itself to be a phenomenally successful preparation for nurses.

    One of the way to embrace those advantages is by ENCOURAGING the move from ADN to BSN. And that will not happen without the real advantage of an increasing salary. It would cost me 20k to go get my BSN right now. If we, as a group, want this to be the standard, we need to make that 20k a valid expense, and not just in the money, but in the time spent.

    5 bucks an hour more for BSN WOULD be prudent. And, that would change the dynamics of original applications to BSN programs over ADN programs for those that CAN without dimiminishing opportunity for those that can't. Today, there are more ADN programs than BSN. Create a 5 buck/hr pay differential, and in 10 yrs, I'd bet BSN makes up 70% of programs.

    And this can be done without the animosity that BSN entry is just going to continue.

    I've said this before, if there was a 5 buck an hour difference, my bach degree WOULD BE BSN.

    But, employers aren't going to foment for this change. It's simply not in their interests. That's why I doubt there are many places that actually pay 2 dollars more an hour for BSN over ADN at the bedside. Oh, I'm sure they exist, but they are the vast exception.

    NO, collectively and individually, in unions and one on one negotiations, BSNs are going to have to stand up and say, 'I deserve more'. And they have to do that without the subtle slights at ADNs. After all, we want to bring everybody to this point.

    Instead of wasting our energy on a 50 yr old debate about minimum entry that will never be achievable, we should be spending our energy on CREATING the respect for education that too many advocate comes from the education itself. It doesn't. But focusing on a salary difference WOULD persistently change the dynamics of the ratio of BSN to ADN PROGRAMS, and over time, meet the same goals.

    And, it would meet those goals faster than the defunct idea of minimum entry, WITHOUT the divisiveness of that debate, and WITHOUT leaving our current and future peers behind.

    (Tweety, can you see how my arguments and POV on this has changed and sharpened over time? There is SOME advantage to this 'tired old debate'. I HAVE given it lots of thought in the year plus I've been trolling around this board.)

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 20, '06
  5. by   ZASHAGALKA
    http://www.aacc.nche.edu/Template.cf...nterestDisplay

    AACN Clarifies Position On Associate Degree Nurses
    By Kathleen Ann Long, President, AACN
    July 23, 2002

    "Unfortunately, efforts to build partnerships and expand nursing school capacity are now being threatened by heightened concerns at many community colleges that baccalaureate programs are aggressively seeking to downgrade the importance of the associate degree in nursing (ADN) and the contribution ADN-prepared nurses make in the nursing workforce. . .

    For the record, AACN does not seek to close associate degree programs, we do not wish to limit ADN graduates’ access to RN licensure, or to deny those graduates entry into practice. We recognize the vital role ADN nurses play, and will continue to play, in the delivery of healthcare. . .

    Associate degree and baccalaureate programs should be natural allies, and these relationships should be nurtured and strengthened. . .

    If the American Association of Community Colleges (AACC), AACN and N-OADN all agree that ADN programs are vital, and we all support the concept of advancing nursing education, wherein lies the threat? "



    Of course, this is the SAME organization that also states the following:

    "The primary pathway to professional nursing, as compared to technical-level practice, is the four-year Bachelor of Science degree in nursing (BSN)."

    and

    "The American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN) and other leading nursing organizations recognize the BSN degree as the minimum educational requirement for professional nursing practice."


    So their enthusiasm for BSN and ADNs being 'natural' allies is suspect.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 21, '06
  6. by   RainDreamer
    Does your hospital pay BSN nurses more?
    Nope.

    If no, what are your thoughts on this?
    I see no point that they'd pay BSN nurses more if we're all doing the same job. The only way they should pay them more is if they're in a management/administrative position, obviously. But as far as working as nurses on the floor, if we're all doing the same job, then we should all start at the same pay.

    On a side note:
    Does Magnet status tie into BSN nurses?
    Not that I'm aware of. Our hospital is in the process (it's a LONG process, btw) of becoming magnet and they do not require a BSN. In a lot of the speciality areas they require an RN (rather than LPN), but not a BSN.
  7. by   RainDreamer
    Quote from Tweety
    Here we go again.

    To answer the OP's question. BSN and ADN's start out the same, but when they go from RN I's to RN II's after orientation, we go into a "pay for skill" pay scale, with the skills being leadership, precepting, telemetry, certification and BSN, among others. For each "skill" the nurse gets a 4% raise. So after passing boards and finising orientation, all other things being equal the BSN will make 4% more than the ADN.

    I support this, but won't go too much into lest the thread be closed.
    That's basically how ours works too. We can get paid more for different skills, participating in different things/committees, getting different certifications, etc, etc, etc. One of those is having a BSN. But the list of things is HUGE with having a BSN just being one of MANY. So even if you don't get the BSN, there are plenty of other opportunities for you to get the extra pay (4%). They don't pay more solely for having a BSN.
  8. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from RainDreamer
    If no, what are your thoughts on this?
    I see no point that they'd pay BSN nurses more if we're all doing the same job. The only way they should pay them more is if they're in a management/administrative position, obviously. But as far as working as nurses on the floor, if we're all doing the same job, then we should all start at the same pay.
    Ultimately, RNs are not paid the same, regardless that they are doing the same job. I get paid FAR more then a new grad. And, rightly so.

    I get paid more BECAUSE of my experience. And THAT is a form of education. I simply have FAR more education in healthcare then any new grad, BSN or ADN. And that education is a function of my experience. And it is rewarded. And again, rightly so.

    There is a rationale for more money for BSN. It is an incentive to move us in the right direction. If there is no incentive to achieve BSN, far fewer RNs will actually try. And the reverse is true.

    I'm against a BSN minimum entry BECAUSE of who we leave behind. But I support the ideas of advancing our educational standards. And real incentives come down to money, not job titles.

    Wouldn't you be upset if new grads were paid at EXACTLY your level, for years to come? It's the same thing. BSN does take more to attain, and should be appropriately rewarded, just like experience.

    Or look at another way: if BSNs got paid 5 dollars more an hour, wouldn't most ADNs have a huge incentive to keep moving their education to that point? What else, besides money, is going to do that for the masses? Personal motivation, due to cost and time, and without ultimate financial incentive, is just not going to move the masses.

    It didn't move me. I WAS personally motivated to get my bach degree. But without financial incentive, I saw no need, for me personally, to get a BSN. So, my bach degree is in biology. For a variety of reasons, and without proper motivation otherwise, it serves me better.

    There is an advantage to moving RNs to baccalaureate prep. But, not at the expense of leaving some of us behind. Real financial incentives is the balance that achieves that.

    Demanding BSN-entry won't fly. 40 yrs of effort ought to sufficiently prove that. But, minimizing the reward for different levels of prep, be it education OR experience, won't advance our profession, either.

    Do you know why 'bracket creeps' are endemic to nursing (by that I mean that price of new grads go up faster then the raises you get along the way so that a 2 yr RN typically makes in the same ballpark as a new grad)? Because the same philosophy that affects BSN vs. ADN wages affects the bracket creep.

    And you've NAMED the philosophy: all RNs should be paid the same for the same work. THAT is a philosophy most hospital administrations can only dream about.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 21, '06
  9. by   Tweety
    Quote from RainDreamer
    That's basically how ours works too. We can get paid more for different skills, participating in different things/committees, getting different certifications, etc, etc, etc. One of those is having a BSN. But the list of things is HUGE with having a BSN just being one of MANY. So even if you don't get the BSN, there are plenty of other opportunities for you to get the extra pay (4%). They don't pay more solely for having a BSN.

    This is very true. As an ADN nurse, and one who has been at this hospital for 14 years, I've got virtually all the skills I can get a (only two remain, critical care course and BSN), have gotten good raises and this year reached the maximum salary allowed for a staff RN. So as an ADN, I'm doing quite well. So when I finish my BSN next year, unless they raise the maximum (which I doubt) I will get the skill but won't get a dime for my BSN.
    Last edit by Tweety on Aug 21, '06
  10. by   Tweety
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    (Tweety, can you see how my arguments and POV on this has changed and sharpened over time? There is SOME advantage to this 'tired old debate'. I HAVE given it lots of thought in the year plus I've been trolling around this board.)

    ~faith,
    Timothy.

    Timothy, I started to make a post saying something like "when did Timothy start making so much sense on this issue?" but didn't want to sound demeaning.
  11. by   RainDreamer
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Ultimately, RNs are not paid the same, regardless that they are doing the same job. I get paid FAR more then a new grad. And, rightly so.

    I get paid more BECAUSE of my experience. And THAT is a form of education. I simply have FAR more education in healthcare then any new grad, BSN or ADN. And that education is a function of my experience. And it is rewarded. And again, rightly so.

    There is a rationale for more money for BSN. It is an incentive to move us in the right direction. If there is no incentive to achieve BSN, far fewer RNs will actually try. And the reverse is true.

    I'm against a BSN minimum entry BECAUSE of who we leave behind. But I support the ideas of advancing our educational standards. And real incentives come down to money, not job titles.

    Wouldn't you be upset if new grads were paid at EXACTLY your level, for years to come? It's the same thing. BSN does take more to attain, and should be appropriately rewarded, just like experience.

    Or look at another way: if BSNs got paid 5 dollars more an hour, wouldn't most ADNs have a huge incentive to keep moving their education to that point? What else, besides money, is going to do that for the masses? Personal motivation, due to cost and time, and without ultimate financial incentive, is just not going to move the masses.

    It didn't move me. I WAS personally motivated to get my bach degree. But without financial incentive, I saw no need, for me personally, to get a BSN. So, my bach degree is in biology. For a variety of reasons, and without proper motivation otherwise, it serves me better.

    There is an advantage to moving RNs to baccalaureate prep. But, not at the expense of leaving some of us behind. Real financial incentives is the balance that achieves that.

    Demanding BSN-entry won't fly. 40 yrs of effort ought to sufficiently prove that. But, minimizing the reward for different levels of prep, be it education OR experience, won't advance our profession, either.

    Do you know why 'bracket creeps' are endemic to nursing (by that I mean that price of new grads go up faster then the raises you get along the way so that a 2 yr RN typically makes in the same ballpark as a new grad)? Because the same philosophy that affects BSN vs. ADN wages affects the bracket creep.

    And you've NAMED the philosophy: all RNs should be paid the same for the same work. THAT is a philosophy most hospital administrations can only dream about.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    That's why I said we should all START at the same pay. I never meant that all nurses (experienced vs. new grads) get paid the same. I just meant that starting out, at my hospital, all new grads get the same pay, regardless of having a ADN or BSN.
  12. by   zolly786
    in our province (we're all under a collective agreement), we all get the same wage, regardless of diploma (our adn in canada) or bsn. if you have a regular full time position, you get $100 a month more. if you are part time, it's pro-rated, and if you're casual, you don't get anything.

    if you have a certificate (be it icu, gerontology or emerg), you get $50 per month.

    if you have your masters, you get $25 more than if you had your degree.

    i actually worked with this girl (bsn) who had the gall to say that she thought she should make more than a diploma nurse who had been working longer than this chicky had been alive. she didn't last long. ended up going travel nursing somewhere. when i told her she was being unreasonable, she told me it was because i "was just jealous" because i didn't have my degree. uh, no. i have mine. i was not hired as a bsn, i was hired as an rn and that's what my name tag says.

    no in bc, all the nursing programs are bsn. but bsn isn't entry to practice like it is in ontario.
  13. by   sunnyjohn
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    What we are talking about here is education and experience. Experience is worth more, because it's a form of education. Education should be worth more, as well, and in its own right.
    ......

    There are advantages to BSN. We should be embracing those advantages. Not to the exclusion of ADN, because ADN has proven itself to be a phenomenally successful preparation for nurses.

    One of the way to embrace those advantages is by ENCOURAGING the move from ADN to BSN.
    And that will not happen without the real advantage of an increasing salary. It would cost me 20k to go get my BSN right now. If we, as a group, want this to be the standard, we need to make that 20k a valid expense, and not just in the money, but in the time spent.

    5 bucks an hour more for BSN WOULD be prudent. And, that would change the dynamics of original applications to BSN programs over ADN programs for those that CAN without dimiminishing opportunity for those that can't. Today, there are more ADN programs than BSN. Create a 5 buck/hr pay differential, and in 10 yrs, I'd bet BSN makes up 70% of programs.

    And this can be done without the animosity that BSN entry is just going to continue.
    ......

    (Tweety, can you see how my arguments and POV on this has changed and sharpened over time? There is SOME advantage to this 'tired old debate'. I HAVE given it lots of thought in the year plus I've been trolling around this board.)

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    How about a "BSN/MSN/MN or other Bachelor's degree within five years of your first nursing position AND a $2-5 dollar wage increase" type deal?

    How about a BSN for ADN and Diploma gained using a special combo of intense CEU-like self-study courses?

    They could always give extensions in case of emergency.

    And Timothy, I am starting to see were you are coming from in this whole thing. I'm still holding up my union sign, but I see your point.

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