higher pay for BSN grads? - page 2

Quick poll here... Does your hospital pay BSN nurses more? If yes, how much? If no, what are your thoughts on this? On a side note: Does Magnet status tie into BSN nurses?... Read More

  1. by   indigo girl
    The BSN rate of pay was higher in the last hospital I worked for. This was several years ago as I work LTC now. I am not making a value judgement on whether or not this was good, just that it was so.
  2. by   ZASHAGALKA
    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm
    "Although a number of models for differentiating nursing roles have been proposed, they have been difficult to implement in health care areas where identical licensure implies that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Attempts to identify variables that can distinguish educational preparation in practice settings have yielded few that can be easily measured."

    "Some have argued that establishing the baccalaureate degree as the minimum requirement for entry into practice has racist implications because it presents an additional barrier to people of color who have not had equal access to higher education and could potentially be excluded from the benefits and status of professional nursing (Mason, Backer, & Georges, 1991)"


    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/top....htm#Table%201

    ADN programs graduate twice as many blacks (10% vs. 4.9%), twice as many men (10.7% vs. 5.4%), twice as many native Americans (1.1% vs. 0.5%) and three times as many hispanics (6.3% vs. 2.0%) versus the total RN population. Not to mention that ADN graduates are, on average, 3 yrs older than other grads.

    In all but one of the above criteria (age), nursing is seriously behind the 'community' averages. A decision to move nursing EVEN FURTHER away from the community's makeup cannot be seen as an 'improvement'. Bland reassurances to 'fix' said problems cannot be taken at face value, as the problem is ALREADY endemic; changing the standards WOULD ONLY MAKE IT WORSE.

    No, the BSN entry MUST first address its inherent diversity problems BEFORE attempting to make these unaddressed problems 'universal' to nursing education.

    Keep the doors open. But, move the goal to eventual BSN. And yes, added pay should be ONE of the tools that lead there.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 19, '06
  3. by   user9876
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    ADN programs graduate twice as many blacks (10% vs. 4.9%), twice as many men (10.7% vs. 5.4%), twice as many native Americans (1.1% vs. 0.5%) and three times as many hispanics (6.3% vs. 2.0%) versus the total RN population. Not to mention that ADN graduates are, on average, 3 yrs older than other grads.

    No, the BSN entry MUST first address its inherent diversity problems BEFORE attempting to make these unaddressed problems 'universal' to nursing education.

    did you ever consider it isn't a school diversity problem, but just an issue of which people are more inclined and able to go the community college route? just a thought.
  4. by   evans_c1
    I will apply to my own post haha..
    BSN grads. do not get higher pay bc the administration sees the two grads as the same essentially. In my humble opinion, I believe that BSN should get SOMETHING for all the hardwork put forth. Is that crazy? lol Yes, you may get a management position eventually..but what if you don't? I don't think that people get degrees for the fun of it. Education is important just like experience though, and I feel like a true balance needs to be there to be a true professional in healthcare.
  5. by   lindarn
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm
    "Although a number of models for differentiating nursing roles have been proposed, they have been difficult to implement in health care areas where identical licensure implies that "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Attempts to identify variables that can distinguish educational preparation in practice settings have yielded few that can be easily measured."

    "Some have argued that establishing the baccalaureate degree as the minimum requirement for entry into practice has racist implications because it presents an additional barrier to people of color who have not had equal access to higher education and could potentially be excluded from the benefits and status of professional nursing (Mason, Backer, & Georges, 1991)"


    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/top....htm#Table%201

    ADN programs graduate twice as many blacks (10% vs. 4.9%), twice as many men (10.7% vs. 5.4%), twice as many native Americans (1.1% vs. 0.5%) and three times as many hispanics (6.3% vs. 2.0%) versus the total RN population. Not to mention that ADN graduates are, on average, 3 yrs older than other grads.

    In all but one of the above criteria (age), nursing is seriously behind the 'community' averages. A decision to move nursing EVEN FURTHER away from the community's makeup cannot be seen as an 'improvement'. Bland reassurances to 'fix' said problems cannot be taken at face value, as the problem is ALREADY endemic; changing the standards WOULD ONLY MAKE IT WORSE.

    No, the BSN entry MUST first address its inherent diversity problems BEFORE attempting to make these unaddressed problems 'universal' to nursing education.

    Keep the doors open. But, move the goal to eventual BSN. And yes, added pay should be ONE of the tools that lead there.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Is there any reason why nursing needs to remain behind all of the other health care professionals who have gone beyond even a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice? Why nursing needs to remain the "welfare state" and "social action recipients" of the health care professionals? I do not see other health care professions concerning themselves with problems that can be solved by the individual. Their concern was, and is, raising the standards of their profession. They set the bar, and expect all who want to be part of the profession to either accept it, and earn the present educational standards, or choose another profession. They have applicants beating down their doors to be admitted.

    No one asks to have the rules changed, or bent, for them. No one asks to have a degree given to them based on some nubulous past education or experience, received a lifetime ago. This adherance and acceptance of a higher level of entry into practice is rewarded with MUCH HIGHER PAY, AND RESPECT.

    Has anyone ever thought that the current refusal to reward a higher level of education, is just a ploy by the hospitals to keep nurses from becoming united under one educational level? I do believe that a unified nursing workforce is exactly what the hospitals do not want. They do not want the public to know that nurses are educated professionals. The prefer to keep the public unaware of the education that is needed to become an RN. That keeps us unimportant and invisible. (AKA BARE FOOT AND PREGNANT). If nurses were rewarded significantly for earning a BSN, then nurses would be flocking to colleges to earn it. And when most of the nursing workforce had a BSN, they would, heavans to betsy, ask for more money, like the PTs, and OTs and Pharmacists have. Is that really what the doctor ordered? Maybe not, but remaining the lowest educationally prepared of the health care professions, make it that much harder to demand what we know we are worth. JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    Last edit by lindarn on Aug 19, '06
  6. by   MuddaMia
    Quote from lindarn
    Is there any reason why nursing needs to remain behind all of the other health care professionals who have go beyond even a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice? Why nursing needs to remain the "welfare state" and "social action recipients" of the health care professionals? I do not see other health care professions concerning themselves with problems that can be solved by the individual. Their concern was and is, raising the standards of their profession. They set the bar, and expect all who want to be part of the profession to either accept, and earn the present educational standards, or choose another profession. They have applicants beating down their doors to be admitted.

    No one asks to have the rules changed, or bent, for them. No one asks to have a degree given to them based on some nubulous past education or experience, received a lifetime ago. This adherance and acceptance of a higher level of entry into practice is rewarded with MUCH HIGHER PAY, AND RESPECT.

    Has anyone ever thought that the current refusal to reward a higher level of education, is just a ploy by the hospitals to keep nurses from becoming united under one educational level? I do believe that a unified nursing workforce is exactly what the hospitals do not want. They do not want the public to know that nurses are educated professionals. The prefer to keep the public unaware of the education the is needed to become an RN. That keeps us unimportant and invisible. (AKA BARE FOOT AND PREGNANT) If nurses were rewarded significantly for earning a BSN, then nurses would be flocking to colleges to earn it. And when most of the nursing workforce had a BSN, they would, heavans to betsy, ask for more money, like the PTs, and OTs and Pharmacists have. Is that really what the doctor ordered? Maybe not, bu remaining the lowest educationally prepared fo the health care professions, make it that much harder to demand what we know we are worth. JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington

    AMEN MY SISTA!!:yeahthat:
  7. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from lindarn
    Is there any reason why nursing needs to remain behind all of the other health care professionals who have gone beyond even a Bachelors Degree as entry into practice? Why nursing needs to remain the "welfare state" and "social action recipients" of the health care professionals? I do not see other health care professions concerning themselves with problems that can be solved by the individual. Their concern was, and is, raising the standards of their profession. They set the bar, and expect all who want to be part of the profession to either accept it, and earn the present educational standards, or choose another profession. They have applicants beating down their doors to be admitted.

    No one asks to have the rules changed, or bent, for them. No one asks to have a degree given to them based on some nubulous past education or experience, received a lifetime ago. This adherance and acceptance of a higher level of entry into practice is rewarded with MUCH HIGHER PAY, AND RESPECT.

    Has anyone ever thought that the current refusal to reward a higher level of education, is just a ploy by the hospitals to keep nurses from becoming united under one educational level? I do believe that a unified nursing workforce is exactly what the hospitals do not want. They do not want the public to know that nurses are educated professionals. The prefer to keep the public unaware of the education that is needed to become an RN. That keeps us unimportant and invisible. (AKA BARE FOOT AND PREGNANT). If nurses were rewarded significantly for earning a BSN, then nurses would be flocking to colleges to earn it. And when most of the nursing workforce had a BSN, they would, heavans to betsy, ask for more money, like the PTs, and OTs and Pharmacists have. Is that really what the doctor ordered? Maybe not, but remaining the lowest educationally prepared of the health care professions, make it that much harder to demand what we know we are worth. JMHO.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    You have the mistaken belief that others, such as doctors or admin, would RESPECT a bach degree. If you can't see by now, with this issue about salary differential, that they simply don't care, nothing will convince you short of BSN-entry and still, no additional respect or pay to show for it.

    We do need to be unified, but it won't be under one 'educational umbrella'. For, as soon as BSN became the 'entry', then the APNs would complain that 'RN's bring the profession down'. Don't believe me?

    http://www.nursingworld.org/ojin/topic18/tpc18_3.htm:

    "Doors to future educational changes should be kept open, but moving education to the BSN level is the first step. Noting the increasing complexity of health care, some nurse leaders are concerned that a baccalaureate degree is no longer sufficient preparation for practice. They advocate master's or even doctoral level education and abandonment of the Registered Nurse title in favor of an advanced practice role that is clearly distinguished from entry into practice at the associate degree level. While raising the educational bar even higher can possibly be justified in terms of the knowledge base needed for advancing professional practice, we need to pay attention to past lessons and view with caution any proposed solution that would further split the profession and separate nurses with college degrees from the ranks of bedside caregivers."

    No one IS asking to have the rules bent for them. But, changing the rules in ways that are exclusive IS anti-affirmative access. Especially when you consider that while twice as many blacks graduate from ADN programs as the general RN population, once they receive their ADNs, blacks are MORE likely to obtain BSN, MSN, and PhD from an ADN then the general pop of ADNs . Non-traditional pathways DO make up for societal patterns that tend to deprive individuals from 'traditional' access.

    http://bhpr.hrsa.gov/healthworkforce...ryfindings.htm
    2004 National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses

    "However, when both the initial and the post-RN education are taken into account, Asian/Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islanders (non-Hispanic) and Black, non-Hispanic RNs were more likely than either Hispanics or White, non-Hispanic RNs to attain at least baccalaureate preparation. Among Black, non-Hispanic RNs, 14.3 percent were estimated to have their highest preparation at the master’s or doctorate level compared to 13.3 percent among White, non-Hispanics, 10.4 percent among Hispanics, and 9.9 percent among Asian/Native Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, non-Hispanic nurses"

    It's not a matter of turning nursing into a 'welfare state' or 'social action recipient' program. That's crude, at best. It's a matter of providing opportunity to those that don't have access to traditional opportunities. Be it because of race, family situations, second career seekers, etc.

    And, since there is no real difference between ADN and BSN AT THE BEDSIDE, there is no reason to deprive non-traditional students of such opportunities. The only reason you cite, in fact, is the 'respect' that comes from academic arrogance. Oh, if only we all had degrees, how they'd respect us. . . yeah, right. Doctors have only put nurses in their places for years because they didn't have degrees. We'll show them. Administrations only treat BSNs like ADNs because EVERYBODY doesn't have a degree. We'll show them.

    Let's go to a bra burning rally and show them what a degree can do! That's patently silly. Unity would serve us better. And that unity is DEPRIVED by injecting academic elitism into our ranks.

    And we haven't even discussed the fact that by making RNs MORE RARE, we create a supply crisis that would only be solved by devolving our roles and 'standards of practice' to UPAs and other unlicensed or less educated personnel that would now be 'managed' by RNs while THEY do the jobs that RNs once did. This is, in fact, EXACTLY what happened to the physical therapist role.

    I do agree that all paths should lead to BSN. But I disagree with BSN minimum entry. It would damage our profession, at this moment, far more than it would enhance it.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    Last edit by ZASHAGALKA on Aug 19, '06
  8. by   cardiacRN2006
    Wow Timothy, excellent post! Well researched and as always, well said.
  9. by   Justhere
    Our hospital does not pay more for BSN, but they encourage you to get it.
  10. by   anc33
    I started at a large teaching hospital where they gave BSNs $0.25 more an hour. However, it is a magnet hospital and they are pushing all the RNs to pursue their BSNs by paying for the education.
  11. by   maryshome8
    I respectfully disagree and the original poster that is experiencing a distinct difference between a BSN and an ASN is probably correct.

    I am not a nurse, and start my pre-req's this week, BUT I called the two major hospital systems in the large city where I live and spoke to the nurse recruiters....because they are the best ones to tell you what they pay, espcially new grads. I was pleasantly suprised that they were more than happy to speak to me about their hiring practices.

    Here is what I was told:

    RN's that have been hired within the last 10 years, if you want to get into any level of management, and you don't have a BSN, you can forget it. This is for virtually all departments.

    I have a BS in Psychology, but they want, specifically, the BSN. The only other exception would have been if I just happened to have a BS in Hospital Administration, which some colleges have.

    The other exception would have been if I was working in a Psychiatric facility...because as a Psychology major, I would have many more courses and training than someone who had a BSN within the discipline, and a BS in Psychology and an ASN would have been considered a BSN equivilant, but only in that particular healthcare setting, which I have zero interest in.

    With regards to pay for a BSN vs ASN...it's a yes and no question.

    Their more advanced care ICU, NICU, etc...paid significantly more than other staff positions because of the higher skill and time required to attend to these patients....the catch is, if you don't have a BSN, a new grad getting one of these positions is not impossible, but not likely, unless you have a BSN.

    But for regular staff nursing positions, there was no pay difference between an RN and an ASN for a new grad.

    Keep in mind that the availability of nurses in your geographical area will be a HUGE factor in how hospitals hire and consider BSN's vs ASN's. There are, I think, about 10 different nursing school programs in the city and they are cranking out graduates several times a year with very high gradutation rates and many of them boast a 95% or higher pass rates for state boards.



    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    I doubt this is entirely accurate. I'm not saying you aren't telling the truth, but that you are probably misinformed.

    I can't see any hospital making such a distinction between ADN/BSN. Why not? Because, once you START making such distinctions, the pay would follow and the REASON why BSNs don't get paid much more is because hospitals don't actually WANT to recognize the difference where it would count: and that's the bottom line.

    Sure, they'd like to have the credentials, but not the costs related to making it a priority.

    I think BSN SHOULD get 2-5 dollars an hour more. I doubt that is the case anywhere, however. See, this isn't just a case of our own inter-squabbling, TPTB like the idea of keeping us divided.

    I disagree with BSN-entry. It lops off too many opportunities for alternative and non-traditional educational pathways. We simply need MORE diversity in nursing then to recruit only 18 yr old white females going to college on 'daddy's money'. And yes, I know that is a generalization and many traditional BSN students don't fit that bill. But, it is a more TRADITIONAL pathway and making it the exclusive pathway WILL lead to short-circuiting more non-traditional students.

    I do think, however, that BSN should be required after a period of time in nursing, say 10 yrs. And financial incentives would enhance that. But, again, TPTB aren't in actual favor of this.

    Think about it THIS WAY: many argue that BSN will increase our wages and respect. IF YOU ARE THE PERSON PAYING THOSE WAGES AND GRANTING THOSE CONCESSIONS TO RESPECT, is this in YOUR gameplan?

    So, I'm all for the pay differential. I'm all for moving towards BSN. But, I'm against BSN-entry.

    For the record, I'm an ADN that got my bach degree after my nursing degree. It's in Biology, though. I saw no need nor benefit in getting a BSN. IF there actually were at 2-5 dollar differential, my Bach degree WOULD BE A BSN.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  12. by   Tweety
    Here we go again.

    To answer the OP's question. BSN and ADN's start out the same, but when they go from RN I's to RN II's after orientation, we go into a "pay for skill" pay scale, with the skills being leadership, precepting, telemetry, certification and BSN, among others. For each "skill" the nurse gets a 4% raise. So after passing boards and finising orientation, all other things being equal the BSN will make 4% more than the ADN.

    I support this, but won't go too much into lest the thread be closed.
  13. by   RN34TX
    Quote from Penny4URthoughts
    Our hospital does not pay more for BSN, but they encourage you to get it.
    Your hospital doesn't pay more for a BSN, but they encourage you to get it?
    What??
    Without any additional compensation involved, how exactly do they go about "encouraging" your staff RN's to get their BSN?

    The pay increase at my hospital is downright insulting but I'm doing it anyway. The one thing my hospital has that no other in Dallas or Houston has (that I know of) is that they will pay up front for books, tuition, fees, and even some paid time off for exams or study.

    All other hospitals that I've worked for or applied at have that stupid tuition reimbursement system where you have to come up with the money first and then get reimbursed after your grades get posted.

    So I'd be a fool to turn down a basically free education even though I have no clue as to what I'm going to do with a BSN after getting it.

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