higher pay for BSN grads? - page 13
Quick poll here... Does your hospital pay BSN nurses more? If yes, how much? If no, what are your thoughts on this? On a side note: Does Magnet status tie into BSN nurses?... Read More
Mar 2, '07Yes we do have a great program here, I'm very proud to be in this program because I know it is very good. I am happy I did the BS instead of the ADN down the street, cause frankly they aren't the same. I know I will be a better prepared nurse having gone to my BSN program instead of the ADN down the street. Now that being said, I completely agree there are some great ADN programs out there, however this is not one of them. For any of you who would argue that its the same, go look at the courses and try to tell me that it is. I'll think you a fool or unable to read to be sure.
Tweety, I doubt you even looked at the programs outlined. 5 semesters for ADN vs 4 semesters for Accelerated. Hrmm....don't see how you do double time with that one. its 5 to 4, not 5 to 2.5 semesters. There is no double time when you compare it that way. The only difference is I have OB the Traditionals don't till the summer when I have Psych, they do that in the fall. The Traditional BSN's have the SAME amount of clinicals as I do same number of hours, so technically I am only going 25% faster. Thanks for listening. And in your own words, "the courses are similiar".......but they are not the same. I was not counting the 33% extra nursing courses as Chemistry's, history's I was talking pure nursing courses such as trauma nursing, or another assessment course. If you want to add in the Year of Chemistry, the Year of History, the Year of Hummanities, etc, the 33% goes to around 50% difference in what I take vs what a ADN takes.
MSADN-all of our assessment courses have a clinical component to them, as well as our Leadership/Management course, it has a clinical component as well.Last edit by Atl_John on Mar 2, '07
Mar 2, '07Another perspective we seem to lack:
(in all this talk of elevating nursing and how having all BSN force would do this)
The sad thing is, BSN programs do not any better prepare nurses for a place at the administrative table in decision and policy-making at most hospitals than ADN programs do. They simply do not. If I had my way, ALL /curricula would include business classes/education and economics. So many nurses have NO IDEA how "bean counters" think because they are seriously lacking education as to basic economics of running a business. And folks, like it or not, hospitals and LTC's ARE big business. I have not run across ONE BSN-prepared nurse any better able to negotiate on these levels than the next nurse holding an ADN or diploma. As a matter of fact, the most vocal, active and capable negotiator I have ever met is an old ADN grad from way back, and by no coincidence, our union steward. None of the BSN nurses stepped up to that plate and from what I see, they simply never will. I am surprised how much they lack in understanding of business practices in general, let alone those of health care institutions. I would think they would know more---but they don't.
They (BSN students) get leadership classes, community health experiences, and a lot of other non-directly-nursing-related coursework ADNs do lack----but they are not prepared to take a place in the administrative ring and lead anyone as nurses, anymore than the diploma or ADN graduate is. Most of such leaders, if they can even be found, are MSN nurses or higher. SOOOO the argument about BSNs helping us elevate in the health care standing, just can't see it from my experience. May as well require a MSN or higher really.....
Fact is, as a rule, almost all BSN, ADN and Diploma nurses horribly lack any real understanding of economics, business practices and negotiation skills. THAT needs to change if nursing is EVER to have a place at the administrative table in health care. Period.
I say, having an MBA would really do more for us in the long run. But hey, it's only my opinion.Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Mar 2, '07
Mar 2, '07You raise a very good point Smiling, BSN's are not taught the fundamentals of economics and how great of a force they play in the healthcare system we have. Having a BS Bus. Admin myself, I understand what you are talking about, and have to agree. I wish that we had courses on Healthcare Economics that showed things such as how insurance works, and how hospitals make money, and where they loose money, etc.
Mar 2, '07John, I surrender. You will be a better nurse than the ADN's down the street because of your program because you are there and know better than I, even though you both pass the same NCLEX. I won't try to convince you otherwise.
Please just don't presume superiority and generalize all ADN nurses.
I did look at the two programs you provided. The ADN program is NLN approved which says a lot to me about the minimum standards. They are fairly rigorous and good enough for me. And you can look at the number of semesters if you choose, but also look at the credit hours. The credit hours for the nursing ciriculums between the two are very similar. Also note that most people can't do the 72 credit hours in five semesters. Most people take the A&P, Micro, etc. ahead of time, the same as you did and take longer than 5 semesters, just like you took longer than 4 semesters to complete your BSN, if you count your prior coursework.
That's my take and again I mainly agree to disagree with you, but respectfully allow you your opinion. You should be very proud that you got in your program and you're making it through. Good on you for that. Just be careful not to bring others down as you are feeling your sense of pride and accomplishment. An ADN from an NLN approved program is a good nurse.
I precept both ADN and BSN students and new grads. I'm a bit more experienced in seeing the end result in this area that you are. Just as in your area things might be different.Last edit by Tweety on Mar 2, '07
Mar 2, '07I said this in another thread:
Nursing MAY someday get ahead and show leadership in health care only when we stop being a bunch of "crabs in a bucket" clamoring and bringing others down in a very misguided and energy-consuming, not to mention, ----totally wasted---- effort to elevate ourselves. This issue goes beyond ADN versus BSN------nursing's divisiveness (sp?---sorry bad today) is our problem, not the ADN or diploma nurses that dare to practice among the "more professional" BSN/MSN nurses. Where there is unity, there is strength--and no, I don't mean simply unionize; it also transcends that as well. Other professions (bachelor-prepared or not) know this and are lightyears ahead of us....
Think "outside the box"; that would be a good start.
SigggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhLast edit by SmilingBluEyes on Mar 2, '07
Mar 2, '07Fair enough Tweety, I dont' wish to keep on arguing this, you see problems with my arguments, and vice versa, lets agree to disagree.
Mar 2, '07Quote from Atl_JohnYou raise a very good point Smiling, BSN's are not taught the fundamentals of economics and how great of a force they play in the healthcare system we have. Having a BS Bus. Admin myself, I understand what you are talking about, and have to agree. I wish that we had courses on Healthcare Economics that showed things such as how insurance works, and how hospitals make money, and where they loose money, etc.
The BSN program I'm in has just such a required course about the financial aspects of modern health care. It's good information to know. My ADN program we had to take economics, but they dropped that aspect not long after I graudated.
BTW, glad we respectfully agree to disagree about who is more pre-pared to be an entry level RN.
Mar 5, '07I work at a university hospital in NY. All nurses start at the same base hourly rate...but then they add "extra" $ for having a Bachelor's or Master's degree, and also for being certified.
Mar 5, '07A bit off topic but I found it strange that there a quite a few Associate degree PA programs still around. Stanford, and Miami Dade community College
to name a few!
Mar 6, '07ADN nurses are much more prepared clinically than BSN nurses, but I also feel that a BSN should get paid a little more than a ADN b/c of the increased education. Some may disagree with me, but it is a matter of opinion. I also feel that all organizations should recognize the amount of years of experience a LPN has once he/she becomes a RN and compensate them for it. The bottom line is we are all here for the same goal and that is to take care of the patient. The problem is that some people have a tendency to treat certain titles in the nursing community less than and that is not right. ADN is not better than BSN and vice versa. RN is not better than LPN and vice versa. Yes the BSN and ADN take the same NCLEX and maybe that's what is not fair. Maybe the NCLEX should be made even harder for the new BSN Grad to take. I don't know? I just feel if I had my BSN I would like to get paid more than a diploma RN or ADN.
Mar 6, '07There is no pay difference between adn or bsn. I know some hospitals may pay any where from $.50-1.00/hr more for bsn. As a ASN rn I can see some would think a bsn should earn a little more, ie.. the school is longer. Does it make a better nurse? My opinon, nope.. it's up to nurse themself if they'll make a better nurse. But I can tell you, a tight wad hospital most likely wont have one pay scale for bsn's and another for asn's. Why pay more for the same work that you can get out of asn's, at least thats what I heard from our Assist. Don. By the way I'm doing a intrenet upgrade with a local university. As far as advancement, most unit manegers are bsn's here, but there are a few that are not. but they are incouraged to upgrade. All the team leaders in the er and icu are asn's except for 2.
Mar 6, '07I do not believe across the board, ADNs are more "clinically-prepared" than BSNs. I know the BSN program "up the road" 90 miles from where I went to AD school had a few more clinical hours/experiences then we did. We lacked community health nursing, nursing research, and senior preceptorships they had---as well as quite a few nursing support courses that did not have clinical components.
I think most programs strive to provide a wealth of varied clinical experiences for their nursing students. Generalizations, as always, just do not make a point true or have any weight. Let's just stop saying who is "better" Clinically and perhaps look for some common ground.Last edit by SmilingBluEyes on Mar 6, '07
Mar 6, '07Quote from bubby8It's not a matter of opinion when you say that "ADN nurses are much more prepared clinically than BSN nurses"; you say that as though it were actually true. The fact is it's just as wrong as those who proclaim that BSN nurses are more clinically prepared than ADNs.ADN nurses are much more prepared clinically than BSN nurses, but I also feel that a BSN should get paid a little more than a ADN b/c of the increased education. Some may disagree with me, but it is a matter of opinion.
The reality is that by and large, practically all RN programs mimic each other in the amount of clinical time and material covered in those clinicals, one of the prime reasons we all sit for the same NCLEX exam.
Some provide over and above the minimums, some are closer to the minimums or just at them. Bottom line is, a good program prepares the new grad to become a competent RN, regardless of whether it was an ADN or BSN.