higher pay for BSN grads?

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Feb 23, 2007

The Aiken study was fatally flawed, and here's why:
https://allnurses.com/forums/f8/critique-study-more-bsns-equal-better-pt-outcomes-157387.html
The most important reason is this: the study never actually or even statistically compared BSN to ADN outcomes. It made abstractions based on assumptions that were in turn based upon first cherry picking which data made it into the study.
That study is akin to me saying that Toyotas get better gas mileage then Fords. It's what I expect to find, but in reality, what I really measured was that Toyota has more green-colored cars than Ford. Green painted cars must be more eco-conscious than other types, right?
~faith,
Timothy.

And yet, in my latest issue of Advance for Nurses magazine (Greater NY/NJ Metro area edition), only days old, the Editorial right smack in the front of the issue cites that study with the comment "Research shows hospitals with a high proportion of baccalaureate educated nurses have better patient outcomes, fewer deaths (Aiken)."

Guess Gail O. Guterl and the fact-checking crew at Advance don't do much fact-checking, huh?

If magazines that (supposedly) support nurses cite misinformation as truth, it's no wonder there's as much confusion as there is.

lauralassie · Feb 24, 2007

Numbers don't lye , but lyers make numbers. Became well versed in this when, me... a little diploma nurse was a CQI , education manager of a large facility. That is why I quit, it was a bunch on crap. The numbers could look like what ever the medical exec committee wanted. It's the same in everthing else. It's all about money and politics...not pt. care. I would be very interested in how they obtained those numbers. Because in real life as a ,critical care RN, I've found very poor ability in many BSN prepared nurse. Mind you not all, but a good number. I've been a nurse for almost 30 years. Going back for my BSN because It's : 1 it's payed for . 2: my time to do things for myself. However, the courses are a joke. So far havn't seen how community nusrsing , (that I took in my diploma prog) is helping save lives. Or, perhaps the religion diversity course. Now that's a real life saver. Infact, most of the time I listen to the instructor and all of us real nurses just laugh to ourselves , knowing what they say is good in therory but sucks in the clinical setting.The classes are interesting but, have nothing to do with thinking on your feet in a high acuity situation. I always wounder why people talk about other nursing degrees and have truly no.... idea of what the course cirric really consist of . They just assume. An we all know what assuming does for a person. Makes and @#% out of u and me. To get back to the subject. I work in a "magnet hospital," BSN's are not payed higher, But after obtaining CCRN ,CEN etc, we get a 50 cent hr increase. I learned more about saving lives from CCRN than BSN.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Feb 24, 2007

And yet, in my latest issue of Advance for Nurses magazine (Greater NY/NJ Metro area edition), only days old, the Editorial right smack in the front of the issue cites that study with the comment "Research shows hospitals with a high proportion of baccalaureate educated nurses have better patient outcomes, fewer deaths (Aiken)."
Guess Gail O. Guterl and the fact-checking crew at Advance don't do much fact-checking, huh?
If magazines that (supposedly) support nurses cite misinformation as truth, it's no wonder there's as much confusion as there is.

Advance is not exactly a beacon of accuracy - they get a lot of PR puff pieces that they print.

At least two facilities (one my former workplace in GA) had wonderful fluffy sunshiny pieces about the wonderful mentoring, the supportive atmosphere, understanding management at there facilities, etal. The one from my facility, was from one of the most back biting pumps and pearls administrators that I have ever met. Those of us that worked there laughed our heads of at the complete garbage this woman had published about the Facility. Even the new grads thought it was crap.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Feb 24, 2007

Advance is not exactly a beacon of accuracy - they get a lot of PR puff pieces that they print verbatim.
At least two facilities (one my former workplace in GA) had wonderful fluffy sunshiny pieces about the wonderful mentoring, the supportive atmosphere, understanding management at there facilities, etal. The one from my facility, was from one of the most back biting pumps and pearls administrators that I have ever met. Those of us that worked there laughed our heads of at the complete garbage this woman had published about the Facility. Even the new grads thought it was crap.

Yeah, I'm seeing that too....I thought that the articles on regional hospitals were actually researched and written by the magazine, but now it seems that they are only submitted TO the magazine. Probably why one hospital seems to show up time and time again and others not at all (which administrators took the time to write the PR!).

Still, I like looking through and seeing the bits that are of interest, and I have learned a thing or two. But now, if I'm intrigued by something, I know I'm going to have to look further to see how far off base the article was :rolleyes:

"pumps and pearls administrator"....I'm going to have to remember that :)

cd_y · Feb 25, 2007

The WLA VA Hospital pays their new grads with BSN's at least 10,000 dollars more a year and also only promotes their BSN nurses. This is due to the research that shows better patient outcomes with higher nursing education. The VA will also help pay you to get your BSN and MSN and PhD, so it isn't a win lose situation. This is not to say that ADN nurses do not work hard, this is just the reality at my hospital.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Feb 26, 2007

This is due to the research that shows better patient outcomes with higher nursing education.

Would this research be the rather discredited Aikens study from 2003 we've been discussing for the last couple of pages? If so, it seems that hospital is paying out big bucks for the wrong reasons.

caroladybelle, BSN, RN · Feb 26, 2007

The WLA VA Hospital pays their new grads with BSN's at least 10,000 dollars more a year and also only promotes their BSN nurses. This is due to the research that shows better patient outcomes with higher nursing education. The VA will also help pay you to get your BSN and MSN and PhD, so it isn't a win lose situation. This is not to say that ADN nurses do not work hard, this is just the reality at my hospital.

Most VA hospitals pay BSNs more, and have done so for ages - having to do more with policy than research. Much in keeping with the difference in acceptance and promotion related to degrees in the military.

jjjoy, LPN · Feb 26, 2007

I agree that some of the extra stuff that BSN programs teach isn't worthwhile. I think too many nursing theories just don't stand up to academic rigor. And then some RN-BSN programs are nothing more than expensive degree-mills without any academically rigorous coursework. That is one issue and it's a related but separate from the general issue of pay differentials between degreed and non-degreed personnel.

A bachelor's degree should indicate that the person has taken upper-division college-level courses, not only intro level courses and vocational classes. Thus, the additional courses beyond RN specific courses WON'T directly apply to bedside job skills. Additional courses usually include research methods and statistics. Others might be legal and ethical issues. Upper division electives could be Psychology of Death and Dying, History of US Public and Community Health, or some other relevant course taught by a different department.

Atl_John · Mar 1, 2007

Hey ya'll, I'm pretty new to this site, however I did have a comment to make here about the topic of conversation. I am older than most BSN students and going back for my BSN in an accelerated course for those who already have a BS in another area. The one thing that I have noticed between the ADN program down the street and the BSN program where I'm at is that we have almost 3x the amount of clinical hours as the ADN program does. The ADN program does around 180-220 hours of clinical preparation during their studies. My BSN program (accelerated and traditional) does between 550-600 hours of clinicals (MS, OB, Peds, CC, Psych, Comm, Preceptor ship). I'm not sure about others programs outside of where I'm at but our Preceptorship alone is 240 hours, 40 of those are specialty hours. (ER, OR, NeuroICU, etc). So we get a pretty well rounded clinical experience and get to become pretty comfortable with our basic skills. As we all know, you learn vastly more in practical application than you do while sitting in a classroom. I don't know about ya'll but I would think that a nurse who has more training and "clinical hours" would be worth more money.

SmilingBluEyes · Mar 1, 2007

WOW that is the first time I heard that BSN programs got three times as many clinical hours. I do know my ADN program and the BSN one up the road 90 miles were VERY close in clinical hours. Their program featured a lot more nursing theory, statistics and community health nursing (which indeed, did account for a few more clinical hours in that component which the ADN lacked). I have to say, what you are describing is really an exception, not the rule.

gerry79 · Mar 1, 2007

My ADN program had 480 clinical hours the first year. My point is that each program be it ADN, BSN, or Diploma, are different. I am sure there are some Diploma programs that surpass ADN and BSN programs in clinical hours. But in the eyes of the employer we (Diploma, ADN, BSN) are considered new grads with the same skill set and should be paid as such. In my opinion having a BSN allows more opportunities away from the bedside.

Atl_John · Mar 1, 2007

As I said, I dont' know how it is in other places just how it is here. But yes, there is a big disparity between the clinical hours here and the ADN program down the road. Also the places that we go to vs. where they go too are quite different. The ADN's go to the same local hospital. Where as we go sometimes over 100 miles + away to places like Atlanta, and Birmingham to do our clinicals in settings that we just couldn't get here. If you have more training, you should get more pay, even with your 480, I still will have a good 25% more clinical hours than you will/do/did.