Education of nurses - page 3

by PCU_RN9

7,394 Unique Views | 65 Comments

Now I know this may upset some but... I think that all nurses should be BSN prepared at minimum, and all LPN, ASN, and diploma programs should be eradicated. My reasoning for this? How many other fields can say they are... Read More


  1. 0
    I don't think over-saturating the job market with professionals is good thing necessarily. Just to think once upon a time a bachelor's degree would guarantee you a decent job. And now when practically everybody holds some BA or BSc degree of some sort, it became very hard to get a good job in your field. Just think we are going the extra mile to uni to get BSc in Nursing to get into a good paying job once we graduate fast, not to compete for every position with 10 other BSc nursing graduates. Besides hospitals are probably more likely to hire the less qualified anyway to save money so it's already bad enough. If anything I would like the graduating classes to be smaller and the nursing schools to filter out more applicants based on academic merit.
  2. 8
    Quote from asystole rn
    i can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately i think you missed the point of a bsn. what i think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.

    the asn, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. these degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. if all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.

    the bsn level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. these "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. if you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

    although some tasks in nursing have been refocused and some tasks taken away altogether our overall scope of practice has grown by leaps and bounds. nursing is moving away somewhat from the generalists but that doesn't mean that tasks are being taken away. in reality nurses are being trained into many different specialties instead. nurses still do intubate in many states, i still get my own abgs, and i can get my own 12 lead if i wanted to.

    you might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.
    "minimally functional clinical nurse"? yeah, that's right. i'm just an automaton who says "yes, doctor," then toddles off to perform the task. i don't think about the hows, whys and wherefores.

    we did learn nursing history, including all those theorists like jean watson, hildegard peplau, etc. we learned about professional ethics. we had a leadership rotation at the end of our senior year when we were expected to act as a staff nurse, with all the responsibilities and the same patient load as other staff. we learned that education is important.

    if my education was so lacking, why was i able to be certified in 5 different specialties over the course of my career?

    i'm very proud to have graduated from a highly regarded diploma program. years ago, docs would say they could tell when a nurse had graduated from "xyz program," because they were head and shoulders above the other programs.
  3. 3
    some of the arguments on here in favour of getting rid of the other programs seems strange. At least when it comes down to people in the field not having the education.

    I mean, so what if they didn't learn new stuff out of a text book. If someone has been working in the field for years and years, that means they have been practising whats current (not just learning it). They can apply their skills... still save lives... and to say because they dont have the science degree that they somehow fall short in my opinion is just crap.

    We should be lucky we have an opportunity to learn and work along side those, weather they have a paper they hang on a wall or not.
    prettymica, Twinmom06, and LockportRN like this.
  4. 1
    Quote from ocnrn63
    i suspect that hospitals that are requiring nurses to go back to complete their bsns are really targeting older staff, who probably graduated from diploma/adn programs. it's a great way to weed out staff who are making higher wages as well as getting rid of older staff who may not move as fast as a 22y old. i doubt it has all that much to do with wanting to have a more educated staff. many facilities don't even pay more for a bsn. it does look good if the hospital is going for magnet to have a mostly bsn staff.
    it has nothing to do with how fast we move it has to do with having seniority and getting a higher rate of pay.....all about money alone. as one of those old bats, i know i can run circles around new nurses ......it's my legs that just don't function any more.
    Last edit by Esme12 on May 20, '12
    prmenrs likes this.
  5. 6
    Oh goody.....we get to discuss this subject again... .(Sorry for the sarcasm)

    This has been an argument when I started school 36 years ago. The diploma nurses didn't think we had enough "clinical time" to survive nursing. We weren't "prepared" as nurses. As long as there are multi levels of entry level into nursing there will be territorial boasting about who's degree is bigger....I mean better than the other. When I went to school ASN/ADN programs were brand new and we the top educated available and BSN got you your advanced degree Nurse Practitioner. The diploma nurses thought we we lacking.

    This is one of those never ending subjects that pop up every time a new nursing class starts and hears the propaganda boasting the heralds of the BSN.

    These "studies" that patients do better with a BSN nurse are run by the very educators who are presently lying to students that there is a nursing shortage.....and push the students into thousands of dollars of debt and then there are no jobs when they graduate. Just a way of perpetuating a little job security for themselves.

    Any changes to the educational requirements will grandfather nurses already licensed. I have met many over educated idiots that can fight their way out of a paper bag. I do agree however that in this present job climate it is probably the prudent thing to do to get the BSN as the market is tight and jobs are slim pickings. The one with higher education will get hired first in some areas of the country.......as the senior nurses that were there to mentor them are being laid off.

    When this all turns around again, and it will........even those ASN/ADN nurses will be right next to those BSN nurses wiping the same patients behind for the same amount of money. With everyone rushing off for the advance degrees and the "big money" the promise...the bedside nurse will be back in demand sooner rather than later

    I mean this in the nicest way.......I was an ASN grad.

    Just my
    Last edit by Esme12 on May 20, '12
    neonurse97, prettymica, nursel56, and 3 others like this.
  6. 1
    I see this all the time: "My LPN/ADN/whatever program was SO much more difficult than my BSN program"...maybe that's because you already have the basics down if you already hold a nursing degree. BSNs have all the same education of an ADN- plus more. I agree that nursing should be a bachelor degree minimum, but that all current nurses would be grandfathered in. LPNs are a whole different argument- they serve a different function and it would be short-sighted to get rid of that role.
    steffuturelpn likes this.
  7. 9
    Quote from Asystole RN
    I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately I think you missed the point of a BSN. What I think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.

    The ASN, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. These degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. If all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.

    The BSN level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. These "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. If you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

    Although some tasks in nursing have been refocused and some tasks taken away altogether our overall scope of practice has grown by leaps and bounds. Nursing is moving away somewhat from the generalists but that doesn't mean that tasks are being taken away. In reality nurses are being trained into many different specialties instead. Nurses still do intubate in many states, I still get my own ABGs, and I can get my own 12 lead if I wanted to.

    You might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.
    I was intubating patients and drawing abgs without a BSN in the 1980"s.....The degree dose not delegate what you can do until you get into advanced degrees. Paramedics intubate. The ability/skill to intubate is governed not by the state nurse practice acts but by facility policy and job description. When I think of the stuff I did as a flight nurse with on the job training.....I Am Honored to have had such an opportunity and education on the job. A 12 lead EKG doesn't require a college degree. I have lived through this acceleration of bedside practice to the responsibilities that are now required. It has been an amazing ride and career. As technology has grown so has the practice of nursing......we had to keep up to care for these patients that were receiving such complicated treatments and interventions.

    Many patients that have been saved by TPA/thrombolytics were saved by nurses that probably didn't have a BSN. Those first open hearts were cared for diploma nurses.I remember the first time I hung the new drug Tridil (IV nitro).....we were petrified to drop it for fear it would blowup..... Intra-arterial streptokinase. Intracoronary urokinase. angioplasty......were all probably performed by nurses without their BSN. I had seen the eradication of the common diagnosis of Ventricular aneurysm due to the aggressive intervention of cardiology and the acute MI. I've seen the beginning of the ck-mb bands to troponin and BNP. I remember when we kept acute MI's on bedrest for days. and the were hospitalized for weeks. Many of these patient were sucessfully cared for by nurses that probably didn't have their BSN.

    You need to know where you have been to know where you are going.......
  8. 2
    Quote from ocnrn63
    i suspect that hospitals that are requiring nurses to go back to complete their bsns are really targeting older staff, who probably graduated from diploma/adn programs. it's a great way to weed out staff who are making higher wages as well as getting rid of older staff who may not move as fast as a 22y old. i doubt it has all that much to do with wanting to have a more educated staff. many facilities don't even pay more for a bsn. it does look good if the hospital is going for magnet to have a mostly bsn staff.
    isn't it funny, they are requiring a bsn with barely any pay difference (just the 'joy' of having more responsibility placed on your shoulders whether you want that or not) while they get more money via higher state rankings thereby advertising their hospital as being better because they are a 'magnet' hospital.
  9. 1
    Quote from LockportRN
    Isn't it funny, they are requiring a BSN with barely any pay difference (just the 'joy' of having more responsibility placed on your shoulders whether you want that or not) while they get more money via higher state rankings thereby advertising their hospital as being better because they are a 'magnet' hospital.
    The hospitals don't get anymore money for Magnet status. It's a marketing tool and bragging rights. Medicare,Medicaid, insurance companies......don't reimburse them any higher than any other hospital. They may get more revenue because the general public may gravitate towards them.....but that's it.
    Altra likes this.
  10. 2
    Quote from Esme12
    The hospitals don't get anymore money for Magnet status. It's a marketing tool and bragging rights. Medicare,Medicaid, insurance companies......don't reimburse them any higher than any other hospital. They may get more revenue because the general public may gravitate towards them.....but that's it.
    Ok, yes that is what I meant...thanks for putting it so succinctly for me
    jelly221,RN and Esme12 like this.


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