Education of nurses - pg.2 | allnurses

Education of nurses - page 2

Now I know this may upset some but... I think that all nurses should be BSN prepared at minimum, and all LPN, ASN, and diploma programs should be eradicated. My reasoning for this? How many other... Read More

  1. Visit  steffuturelpn profile page
    0
    Funny im a new grad lpn going full time in September for my bridge program. I only make 2 bucks more a hr than I did as a tech. Smh u disgusts mw with ur stat. But I bet it's okay when u wants me to anwer questiona about ur mom at the nursing home. Its not gonna happen any time soon get over it hater lmao. Some of the best nurses I know rn bsn were lpns first . Its just a stepping stone.and they all say that the lpn program was way harder than the rn program. Yeah im upset and excuse my typing im on my phone. I know asn and diploma nurses that will run circles around bsn nurses. Lol
    Last edit by traumaRUs on May 20, '12 : Reason: Tos
  2. Visit  applewhitern profile page
    9
    I got the ADN first, then the BSN. I have said it here several times~ I learned far more in the ADN program than the BSN program. The ADN learns everything needed to pass NCLEX and become licensed. The older diploma programs were mostly hospital-based, and those nurses were in the hospital learning stuff every single day. The only thing different in my BSN program was that I had to take a couple more humanities classes, and a research class. It was all fluff, but nothing that enhanced my ability to be a competent RN. Today we have BSN nurses who have never even placed a foley catheter in a real, live patient, or started IV's on them, let alone anything more technical than that. The diploma nurses had to do so much more; they were right there in the hospitals daily, doing foleys, etc., until they were proficient at everything. Don't bash the diploma nurses! Many BSN and ADN nurses get out of school, then have to learn everything "on the job" because they didn't do them in school; this is why you read here how so many new grads expect (and need) six months orientation. I got 5 days!! Yes, eventually everyone will need a BSN, but if you think that will get nursing more respect, more money, etc., you are wrong; it won't. If anything, the role of RN has been "dumbed down." Today you have ancillary personnel that does a lot of what nurses used to do; when I first got out of nursing school, I had to draw my own ABG's and labs, do my own 12-lead EKG's, etc. Now all you have to do is call some other department to do it. Some places even have IV teams that do your IV's for you. Once upon a time, the RN could and would intubate patients. These are diploma and ADN nurses, by the way. A few extra fluff classes does not make you a better RN. The bottom line is that the nurse can only do what the doctor gives an order for. You might know what needs to be done, but you even have to have an MD order to give 02 nasal cannula! There is nothing wrong with being a basic bedside nurse.
  3. Visit  Asystole RN profile page
    3
    Quote from applewhitern
    I got the ADN first, then the BSN. I have said it here several times~ I learned far more in the ADN program than the BSN program. The ADN learns everything needed to pass NCLEX and become licensed. The older diploma programs were mostly hospital-based, and those nurses were in the hospital learning stuff every single day. The only thing different in my BSN program was that I had to take a couple more humanities classes, and a research class. It was all fluff, but nothing that enhanced my ability to be a competent RN. Today we have BSN nurses who have never even placed a foley catheter in a real, live patient, or started IV's on them, let alone anything more technical than that. The diploma nurses had to do so much more; they were right there in the hospitals daily, doing foleys, etc., until they were proficient at everything. Don't bash the diploma nurses! Many BSN and ADN nurses get out of school, then have to learn everything "on the job" because they didn't do them in school; this is why you read here how so many new grads expect (and need) six months orientation. I got 5 days!! Yes, eventually everyone will need a BSN, but if you think that will get nursing more respect, more money, etc., you are wrong; it won't. If anything, the role of RN has been "dumbed down." Today you have ancillary personnel that does a lot of what nurses used to do; when I first got out of nursing school, I had to draw my own ABG's and labs, do my own 12-lead EKG's, etc. Now all you have to do is call some other department to do it. Some places even have IV teams that do your IV's for you. Once upon a time, the RN could and would intubate patients. These are diploma and ADN nurses, by the way. A few extra fluff classes does not make you a better RN. The bottom line is that the nurse can only do what the doctor gives an order for. You might know what needs to be done, but you even have to have an MD order to give 02 nasal cannula! There is nothing wrong with being a basic bedside nurse.
    I can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately I think you missed the point of a BSN. What I think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.

    The ASN, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. These degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. If all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.

    The BSN level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. These "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. If you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

    Although some tasks in nursing have been refocused and some tasks taken away altogether our overall scope of practice has grown by leaps and bounds. Nursing is moving away somewhat from the generalists but that doesn't mean that tasks are being taken away. In reality nurses are being trained into many different specialties instead. Nurses still do intubate in many states, I still get my own ABGs, and I can get my own 12 lead if I wanted to.

    You might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.
    sherri12, sapphire18, and Shorty11 like this.
  4. Visit  Altra profile page
    1
    Quote from Asystole RN
    The ASN, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. These degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. If all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.
    If you look at curricula of ADN/ASN and diploma programs, does your assertion that they are "98% clinical" hold true?
    grownuprosie likes this.
  5. Visit  Twinmom06 profile page
    4
    I'm currently an ADN student, and the ADN programs are harder to get into than the BSN programs...also, more of our grads get hired (all 67 of the current graduating class had job contracts signed AT graduation), and are better prepared than a BSN program nurse to hit the floor running - 2 of our local BSN programs are in danger of losing accreditation because of failing NCLEX rates. I already have a bachelors in another concentration, which will allow me to direct entry into an RN to MSN program and skip the crap classes...I don't agree with your assertion that getting a BSN makes a nurse more "professional" or "global"...we are taught from the start that when we graduate we are nursing professionals. Also, my education is NOT 98% clinical experience - it is equal - 8 hours a week in the classroom and 8 hours per week in the hospital. While its a nice goal, I don't feel its necessary...
    jelly221,RN, OCNRN63, lucky_pig, and 1 other like this.
  6. Visit  pixiestudent2 profile page
    1
    I'm going to go on a limb and say RN to BSN programs are vastly different than a traditional BSN schools. My college has 3 years of clinicals and Nursing classes start in the first year. So i would say those are not fluff classes.
    sapphire18 likes this.
  7. Visit  traumaRUs profile page
    3
    We ask that posters debate the topic not the poster. Also, although we allow a degree go text speak, it is sometimes difficult to understand.
    pseudomonas, Esme12, and OCNRN63 like this.
  8. Visit  canadiandude profile page
    0
    I don't think over-saturating the job market with professionals is good thing necessarily. Just to think once upon a time a bachelor's degree would guarantee you a decent job. And now when practically everybody holds some BA or BSc degree of some sort, it became very hard to get a good job in your field. Just think we are going the extra mile to uni to get BSc in Nursing to get into a good paying job once we graduate fast, not to compete for every position with 10 other BSc nursing graduates. Besides hospitals are probably more likely to hire the less qualified anyway to save money so it's already bad enough. If anything I would like the graduating classes to be smaller and the nursing schools to filter out more applicants based on academic merit.
  9. Visit  OCNRN63 profile page
    8
    Quote from asystole rn
    i can understand where you are coming from but unfortunately i think you missed the point of a bsn. what i think most nurses miss is that nursing education is divided into two very distinct areas of study; clinical education and professional development.

    the asn, or diploma for that matter, is designed to be 98% clinical education. these degrees are designed to build you into a minimally functional clinical nurse. if all that was expected of the professional nurse was to be a straight forward bedside nurse then that would be enough.

    the bsn level of education goes beyond the clinical education and introduces concepts such as statistics, economics, leadership, research, and the like. these "fluff" classes help to develop you professionally, they allow you to view nursing in a more global manner. if you received a quality education you should have walked away from the program with some concept of leadership, organizational structure, professional duty, maybe some nursing history, the ability to read a study and understand the statistical significance, and the ability to understand why education is important.

    although some tasks in nursing have been refocused and some tasks taken away altogether our overall scope of practice has grown by leaps and bounds. nursing is moving away somewhat from the generalists but that doesn't mean that tasks are being taken away. in reality nurses are being trained into many different specialties instead. nurses still do intubate in many states, i still get my own abgs, and i can get my own 12 lead if i wanted to.

    you might not think that higher educational improves a nurse's performance but the studies prove that it actually does make a difference.
    "minimally functional clinical nurse"? yeah, that's right. i'm just an automaton who says "yes, doctor," then toddles off to perform the task. i don't think about the hows, whys and wherefores.

    we did learn nursing history, including all those theorists like jean watson, hildegard peplau, etc. we learned about professional ethics. we had a leadership rotation at the end of our senior year when we were expected to act as a staff nurse, with all the responsibilities and the same patient load as other staff. we learned that education is important.

    if my education was so lacking, why was i able to be certified in 5 different specialties over the course of my career?

    i'm very proud to have graduated from a highly regarded diploma program. years ago, docs would say they could tell when a nurse had graduated from "xyz program," because they were head and shoulders above the other programs.
  10. Visit  Dezy profile page
    3
    some of the arguments on here in favour of getting rid of the other programs seems strange. At least when it comes down to people in the field not having the education.

    I mean, so what if they didn't learn new stuff out of a text book. If someone has been working in the field for years and years, that means they have been practising whats current (not just learning it). They can apply their skills... still save lives... and to say because they dont have the science degree that they somehow fall short in my opinion is just crap.

    We should be lucky we have an opportunity to learn and work along side those, weather they have a paper they hang on a wall or not.
    prettymica, Twinmom06, and LockportRN like this.
  11. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    1
    Quote from ocnrn63
    i suspect that hospitals that are requiring nurses to go back to complete their bsns are really targeting older staff, who probably graduated from diploma/adn programs. it's a great way to weed out staff who are making higher wages as well as getting rid of older staff who may not move as fast as a 22y old. i doubt it has all that much to do with wanting to have a more educated staff. many facilities don't even pay more for a bsn. it does look good if the hospital is going for magnet to have a mostly bsn staff.
    it has nothing to do with how fast we move it has to do with having seniority and getting a higher rate of pay.....all about money alone. as one of those old bats, i know i can run circles around new nurses ......it's my legs that just don't function any more.
    Last edit by Esme12 on May 20, '12
    prmenrs likes this.
  12. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    6
    Oh goody.....we get to discuss this subject again... .(Sorry for the sarcasm)

    This has been an argument when I started school 36 years ago. The diploma nurses didn't think we had enough "clinical time" to survive nursing. We weren't "prepared" as nurses. As long as there are multi levels of entry level into nursing there will be territorial boasting about who's degree is bigger....I mean better than the other. When I went to school ASN/ADN programs were brand new and we the top educated available and BSN got you your advanced degree Nurse Practitioner. The diploma nurses thought we we lacking.

    This is one of those never ending subjects that pop up every time a new nursing class starts and hears the propaganda boasting the heralds of the BSN.

    These "studies" that patients do better with a BSN nurse are run by the very educators who are presently lying to students that there is a nursing shortage.....and push the students into thousands of dollars of debt and then there are no jobs when they graduate. Just a way of perpetuating a little job security for themselves.

    Any changes to the educational requirements will grandfather nurses already licensed. I have met many over educated idiots that can fight their way out of a paper bag. I do agree however that in this present job climate it is probably the prudent thing to do to get the BSN as the market is tight and jobs are slim pickings. The one with higher education will get hired first in some areas of the country.......as the senior nurses that were there to mentor them are being laid off.

    When this all turns around again, and it will........even those ASN/ADN nurses will be right next to those BSN nurses wiping the same patients behind for the same amount of money. With everyone rushing off for the advance degrees and the "big money" the promise...the bedside nurse will be back in demand sooner rather than later

    I mean this in the nicest way.......I was an ASN grad.

    Just my
    Last edit by Esme12 on May 20, '12
    neonurse97, prettymica, nursel56, and 3 others like this.
  13. Visit  sapphire18 profile page
    1
    I see this all the time: "My LPN/ADN/whatever program was SO much more difficult than my BSN program"...maybe that's because you already have the basics down if you already hold a nursing degree. BSNs have all the same education of an ADN- plus more. I agree that nursing should be a bachelor degree minimum, but that all current nurses would be grandfathered in. LPNs are a whole different argument- they serve a different function and it would be short-sighted to get rid of that role.
    steffuturelpn likes this.


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