Education Conspiracy - page 3

Does anyone see a huge difference between an ADN and a BSN prepared nurse, nursing skills wise? Very little of my BSN coursework have been utilized on the floor and to be honest, experienced Diploma... Read More

  1. by   tyvin
    Quote from Avid reader
    Rose, my qualifications are RMN, Reg Mental Nurse which frankly was the best of my education, SRN, equivalent being a Reg Nurse here, costing me all of nothing since my father is English, then back to America for my NCLEX and a BSN for one year, cost $13,000 and one year of my life learning absolutely little. In the UK their Reg Nurses are exceptionally well prepared for immediate entry onto the floors. Very little preceptor ship necessary. Their sisters are bred by dragons with real fire breathing capabilities with a horrific dry wit which can be worse than being burnt. I'm not sure if you can actually just be an RMN to become an RPN. All of the European nurses that I met from as many as say fifteen different countries, no one had a BSN. Yet, they were all quite competent albeit with dental challenges

    Please understand, I'm questioning if we are being taken for a ride?
    "one year of my life learning absolutely little" ...says it all to me. In my senior year of my BSN program the ADN nurses jumping in to get their BSNs came in with that attitude. They sat in their seats and in fact didn't learn anything. They didn't feel they needed too. I talked with a few of them.

    If associate nurses go for the BSN with an attitude that you really don't need it but I can jump the hoops to further my career with it; you get what you want. You'll get the degree and learn nothing more.

    How embarrassing to admit you went to school wasting $13,000 and sat in there learning nothing. I think you took yourself for a ride. One must investigate the school's curriculum, reputation, certification, success rate, etc... It sounds like you didn't do your homework. It also sounds like you made up your mind before you went in. Why pursue the degree if you already had your associates and all your experience.

    I've been presuming you went brick and mortar: were you on an online program. There is no conspiracy. It all depends on the student and what they want out of the school relationship. Of course, it also depends on the school. The online programs aren't worth the paper they're written on IMO. Several states won't accept certain online programs.

    Also, the wide brush you paint the European nurses with bad oral hygiene...hardly professional. Did you graduate with honors since it appears the class was cake?

    I had a few friends in an associate nursing program while I was in a BSN one. As professional courtesy to my fellow nurses on this site I don't go into how bad one program is over the other. We should all be equal and respect each other.
  2. by   Ben_Dover
    Obtaining a higher degree, i.e. bsn, msn, phd (I should actually skip BSN), these people are goal-driven. They're not in it for the money and aware of what's at stake (loans). They do it simply because it's self-gratifying!

    I, seriously, am hopeful that "professionalism/etiquette class" becomes a part of any college curriculum, like "personality development class".
    Last edit by Ben_Dover on Mar 19
  3. by   elkpark
    Quote from tyvin
    "one year of my life learning absolutely little" ...says it all to me. In my senior year of my BSN program the ADN nurses jumping in to get their BSNs came in with that attitude. They sat in their seats and in fact didn't learn anything. They didn't feel they needed too. I talked with a few of them.

    If associate nurses go for the BSN with an attitude that you really don't need it but I can jump the hoops to further my career with it; you get what you want. You'll get the degree and learn nothing more.

    How embarrassing to admit you went to school wasting $13,000 and sat in there learning nothing. I think you took yourself for a ride. One must investigate the school's curriculum, reputation, certification, success rate, etc... It sounds like you didn't do your homework. It also sounds like you made up your mind before you went in. Why pursue the degree if you already had your associates and all your experience.
    Ditto. The BSN completion program I completed (B&M at a local state uni, many years ago) included a cohort of NMs at the local hospital who had been told the hospital was going to a BSN-minimum leadership model, they could either get a BSN by X date or step down from their NM positions. Most of them were angry about the situation, they came into the program with a chip on their shoulders and their arms crossed, they kvetched constantly all the way through the program about how ridiculous and useless it was, and they did everything possible to not only ensure that they learned nothing, but damaged the classroom experience for the people who were actually interested in being there and making something of the classes (fortunately, they were a relatively small proportion of the group, and we just ignored them as much as possible). Some of the members of that cohort came in with an open mind and embraced the idea of taking advantage of an opportunity, determined to get as much out of the experience and their effort as possible (as I did, although I wasn't in that group and my main motivation for entered the program was that I wanted to go to graduate school).

    Most education ends up being largely what you make of it, and what you get out of it is, like so many things in life, a reflection of what you put into it. If you chose to spend a lot of money and not take advantage of the opportunities available to you in the program, or make sure you were choosing a good program, that's on you.
  4. by   Medic/Nurse
    Quote from Ruby Vee
    As a preceptor, I have not noticed a big difference between a new grad with a BSN and one with an ADN -- except for the fact that the BSNs always seem to start the job telling me about their plans to be an NP or a CRNA and they're just here "to get some experience first". Usually that means the minimum experience necessary to be accepted into the program of their choice. The ADNs come to the job excited about taking care of the patients, and that makes me excited to precept them. I will add that the MSN grads -- the MSN as entry-level grads -- seem to be particularly clueless when they start on the unit. That could be the type of people who choose an MSN over the much less expensive ADN, or it could be that the local MSN program is just bad.
    I think our esteemed RubyVee has a good take on the pulse of new RN clinician preparation.

    That is all.

    YMMV
  5. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from jaderook01
    I tend to agree. However, I think the goal of many BSN programs (their stated goals- which may not translate to reality in all cases) is to attempt to instill critical thinking, et cetera. I know some ADN nurses that are fantastic. However, I also know some ADN nurses that suck tremendously (recent grads) because they don't care and only wanted a quick route to become a nurse. That sort has a very different mindset than the majority of recent BSN nurses I know. At the risk of sounding classist, it tends to be more of a class issue, I think.
    You do sound classist; are you really saying BSN nurses come from a "higher class"? You really don't mean that do you? If so, you are not "risking sounding classist", you ARE and it's very unbecoming a professional of any sort to be.

    ADN programs DO instill critical thinking and it is NOT a "quick route" to becoming an RN, if you consider it takes minimum 3 years with all the pre-req's to finish.

    I have met many new BSNs out the gate who sucked, too. Some really DID think they were "Better" than the ADN counterparts, because their professors told them so, in some cases. But their performance and critical thinking skills were no better stacked against the ADN with the same (lack) of experience fresh out of school.


    Your post smacks of arrogance.

    I am very pro-education, and working on advancing mine but again, you won't catch me putting down others simply based on the letters behind (or not behind) their names.
  6. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from Ruby Vee
    As a preceptor, I have not noticed a big difference between a new grad with a BSN and one with an ADN -- except for the fact that the BSNs always seem to start the job telling me about their plans to be an NP or a CRNA and they're just here "to get some experience first". Usually that means the minimum experience necessary to be accepted into the program of their choice. The ADNs come to the job excited about taking care of the patients, and that makes me excited to precept them. I will add that the MSN grads -- the MSN as entry-level grads -- seem to be particularly clueless when they start on the unit. That could be the type of people who choose an MSN over the much less expensive ADN, or it could be that the local MSN program is just bad.
    OH yes, they are just there to "get what I need" to advance and are very clear about making these units and the nurses in them, just "stepping stones" on their paths to much bigger and better things. Some of them could not be more insulting or arrogant and I have seen plenty of them here on this site.
  7. by   Horseshoe
    A lot of this depends upon the school. Not all BSN programs are created equal. Some BSN programs have a few more nursing related classes that are not "fluff." They will have one or two courses specifically dedicated to pharmacology, an entire semester of pediatric nursing instead of a few weeks, one or two entire semesters of community nursing, a whole semester devoted to psych nursing, and some kind of senior practicum that is more in depth. They may require more advanced chemistry or math pre-reqs, as well as statistics, sociology, and psychology classes. The hardest pre-req I had to take was nutrition, which was chemistry based, not four food groups. I went to a brick and mortar nursing school at a very well thought of state university known for its nursing program. I don't recall taking any classes on nursing "theory" other than intro to nursing. Some of the RN to BSN programs (most online) sound like pure crap to me. They are designed to check a box and don't bring a lot of anything truly valuable to the student.

    But the main difference between the two is that a BSN is a more broad education just like you get with any bachelor's degree, whether yours is in business, education, humanities, science, etc. You have to take more courses in English (literature and composition), government, history, maybe philosophy, general science classes totally unrelated to nursing, sometimes foreign language, or fine arts. It's not a degree specifically designed as preparing one for a trade or particular profession. It's not for everybody. It's not necessarily designed to make a better nurse out of someone, simply a person educated in things beyond nursing, which may or may not benefit the student as a person or a professional in measurable ways, but in ways unique to that person's development as a thinker and a human.

    I don't believe there is any "conspiracy" involved. We are simply in a nursing glut, so those in the business of hiring can and do require more education of their nurses, if for no other reason than PR. The ADN is still highly valued in many markets, so no one is "forced" to get a BSN. If one doesn't want to relocate to those markets, then it becomes more necessary to go ahead and get the extra degree or wait out the glut until there is a shortage, in which case the desirable facilities will be clamoring for the services of the ADN. In a severe shortage, bonuses and other goodies will be offered. This is very cyclical.
    Last edit by Horseshoe on Mar 20
  8. by   compassionresearcher
    Linda Aiken's research has shown that higher ratio of BSN nurses in a hospital leads to better patient outcomes. She said it, not me ;-)
  9. by   Avid reader
    Sorry I forgot to mention that I have a B.Acy, which is a Bachelor's in Financial Accounting, which is an excellent degree allowing many avenues of employment. It was a bricks and mortar for my BSN and because of previous education, it did make a BSN quite easy. It was pursued because it appeared to be the trending future.

    So to reiterate, not denigrating further education if it's the individual's choice but I do detect some hostile responses. As an experienced Psych Nurse, I would explore that frustration other than online jabs. YouTube vids of animals doing funny things always works for me.
  10. by   SmilingBluEyes
  11. by   compassionresearcher
    I guess we could go back and forth all day finding articles to support our own opinions. The bottom line is people are successful with and without degrees. It all depends what you do with what you have.

    Many of my former classmates from elementary school who didn't like or do well in class went on
    to learn trades, now they're successful businessmen who own their own company.

    One has to do what they believe is right and what matches their skill set. For some, that is extended education and for others, it's blooming where they're planted. My Bachelor's is not in nursing, but I was able to get into a Master's program with an ASN and non-nursing BA. I wouldn't necessarily advise an ASN with a BA in non-nursing to go back for the BSN as an end point unless your hospital required it and you loved and wanted to keep your job. But if a high school student was trying to choose a program, I would suggest going for the 4-year degree.

    The study below affirms Aikens results.

    http://www.aahs.org/aamcnursing/wp-c...t-Outcomes.pdf


    OBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to examine the effects of registered nurse (RN) education by determining whether nurse-sensitive patient outcomes were better in hospitals with a higher proportion of RNs with baccalaureate degrees. BACKGROUND: The Future of Nursing report recommends increasing the percentage of RNs with baccalaureate degrees from 50% to 80% by 2020. Research has linked RN education levels to hospital mortality rates but not with other nurse-sensitive outcomes. METHODS: This was a cross-sectional study that, with the use of data from 21 University HealthSystem Consortium hospitals,analyzedtheassociationbetweenRN education and patient outcomes (risk-adjusted patient safety and quality of care indicators), controlling for nurse staffing and hospital characteristics. RESULTS: Hospitals with a higher percentage of RNs with baccalaureate or higher degrees had lower congestive heart failure mortality, decubitus ulcers, failure to rescue, and postoperative deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary embolism and shorter length of stay. CONCLUSION: The recommendation of the Future of Nursing report to increase RN education levels is supported by these findings.
  12. by   llg
    Another angle on this issue: A lot of ADN programs pad their curriculum with extra courses to make money and to try to show that their graduates are just as capable as BSN's. Instead of taking 4 full time semesters (as the original, standard Associate's Degree programs were conceived to take), they take 5 or even 6 full time semesters. Usually, it is structured as 2 semesters of pre-reqs followed by 4 semesters of nursing classes.

    The people who should be angry about such programs are the graduates of such programs. Those people took extra classes, paid extra money, spent extra time, etc. spending 3 years to get a 2-year degree. They take 3/4 of a BSN program, but their diploma/degree is the same (ADN) as other people who spent only 18 months. They should be angry about that. But instead, they defend their school by focusing on how much they learned in those classes and how prepared it made them at graduation. They fail to see that they have been ripped off -- paying for that extra education, but getting a degree reflective of a lower level of education.

    I had a friend who taught in an LPN program. She was bragging about how she taught her students a lot of stuff that was beyond the scope of LPN practice -- so her students knew almost as much as an RN. I told her to stop that as it only made for unhappy LPN employees. They would be frustrated that they were not able to use what they learned and would not be credited with having that knowledge. That lack of recognition would frustrate them.

    I believe ADN faculty have often tried to similarly blur the line between ADN and BSN -- to the detriment of our profession. The 2 levels should be clearly distinguishable, with clear differences between the 2 curricula. It would then be clear what type of education would be right for certain types of jobs. A person could then choose the career path (and educational requirements) that best fit their needs.
    Last edit by llg on Mar 20
  13. by   Ruby Vee
    Quote from jaderook01
    I tend to agree. However, I think the goal of many BSN programs (their stated goals- which may not translate to reality in all cases) is to attempt to instill critical thinking, et cetera. I know some ADN nurses that are fantastic. However, I also know some ADN nurses that suck tremendously (recent grads) because they don't care and only wanted a quick route to become a nurse. That sort has a very different mindset than the majority of recent BSN nurses I know. At the risk of sounding classist, it tends to be more of a class issue, I think.
    Whoa . . . judge much. Class issue?

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