Do I REALLY need a BSN? - page 10

Hi. I just graduate with my ADN as a second career. Before that, I was full time mom and before that I was an attorney (yeah, weird, I know). So, I'm hearing here and there that if I want even a... Read More

  1. by   elkpark
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Do you get paid by this site to troll for comments that don't fit into the university academic mindset; cause you're always on it. For the heck of it, I checked into many of these so-called programs that supposedly will give you a BSN for $6000 or less. One of the many being Western Governors University. I have a four year business degree, a three-year nursing diploma and have done some graduate work. When coursework was evaluated, they were all $16,000-$19,000. They give you that low estimate then later say you need this and that course. Read blogs from nurses and you'll find there were many complaints to the Bureau of Consumer Affairs as well as other organizations about this. If there is some magic kingdom where a nurse could buy (and that's just what you'd be doing as the real world value would be 0) a BSN for $6000 or under most nurses haven't found it.
    https://www.wcu.edu/WebFiles/PDFs/RN...st-Program.pdf

    Western Carolina University - RN to BSN Program

    Western Carolina University, Cullowhee NC -- part of the UNC system, CCNE accredited, 96% NCLEX pass rate, estimated complete cost of BSN completion program (four semesters, online with clinical practica arranged in your home community), estimated full cost is ~$3500 for in-state residents (close to $10,000 for out-of-state residents).

    How many "thousands of dollars" into debt would an RN working full-time have to go into to afford a $3500 BSN completion program? That's just one example. I'm sure there are others. I have no reason to spend a lot of time looking for them.

    And the "real world value" of a BSN isn't "0" if you are a diploma- or ADN-prepared RN and the employers in your area only want to hire BSN-prepared nurses, or if you want to move in a position that requires a BSN, or if you want to go to grad school. I don't really understand your vehemence on this topic.
  2. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses. The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.
    I can't not publish their name for the same reason you won't reveal your real name. I have published links to the research rebutting Aiken's study on other threads concerning this topic. I work for a living and don't have the time to spend hunting for them now. You may feel free to go and hunt for them.
  3. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from elkpark
    https://www.wcu.edu/WebFiles/PDFs/RN...st-Program.pdf

    Western Carolina University - RN to BSN Program

    Western Carolina University, Cullowhee NC -- part of the UNC system, CCNE accredited, 96% NCLEX pass rate, estimated complete cost of BSN completion program (four semesters, online with clinical practica arranged in your home community), estimated full cost is ~$3500 for in-state residents (close to $10,000 for out-of-state residents).

    How many "thousands of dollars" into debt would an RN working full-time have to go into to afford a $3500 BSN completion program? That's just one example. I'm sure there are others. I have no reason to spend a lot of time looking for them.

    And the "real world value" of a BSN isn't "0" if you are a diploma- or ADN-prepared RN and the employers in your area only want to hire BSN-prepared nurses, or if you want to move in a position that requires a BSN, or if you want to go to grad school. I don't really understand your vehemence on this topic.
    My vehemence is the Aiken study being promulgated as Gospel truth by organizations such as the AACN. Nothing wrong is someone chooses to get a BSN, Associates, or Diploma. As long as they provide competent care.
  4. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I can't not publish their name for the same reason you won't reveal your real name. I have published links to the research rebutting Aiken's study on other threads concerning this topic. I work for a living and don't have the time to spend hunting for them now. You may feel free to go and hunt for them.
    I am willing to bet I can spend 5 minutes, look through your post history, and confirm that you have never posted a link to a peer-reviewed study that refutes any of Aiken's work, but that burden is on you.

    What you "have the time" for is:

    1. Making up fake quotes to try and pass them off as the authors.

    2. Peddle hearsay and conspiracy theory.

    3. Make fake claims.

    4. Avoid/dodge questions asking for proof.
  5. by   elkpark
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I can't not publish their name for the same reason you won't reveal your real name.
    People who are serving as elected presidents of state nurses' associations are basically public figures (who chose to take on that role) who make public statements on a regular basis. No reason to be so bashful about protecting anyone's anonymity. That ship left the harbor when the individual chose to run for that office.
  6. by   nursel56
    I vowed to myself to stay out of this argument, but as of now I've failed....:-/ I'll just make the hopefully benign observation that market forces have largely obviated the need for schools to push hard on the BSN, as hospitals in large urban areas have such a large pool of applicants these days it makes sense for them to hire the highest-degreed individual, especially if they aren't going to pay them much more than they would an associate-degree nurse.

    Most of us offering advice to prospective nursing students suggest getting the BSN for strictly practical reasons, whatever we think of the validity of Aiken's 2003 study.

    It seems we had "patient outcomes" threads every two weeks for years, but now I hardly see any.
  7. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from BostonFNP
    I am willing to bet I can spend 5 minutes, look through your post history, and confirm that you have never posted a link to a peer-reviewed study that refutes any of Aiken's work, but that burden is on you.

    What you "have the time" for is:

    1. Making up fake quotes to try and pass them off as the authors.

    2. Peddle hearsay and conspiracy theory.

    3. Make fake claims.

    4. Avoid/dodge questions asking for proof.
    That means a lot to me coming from someone who a few years ago, in their usual smug way, bragged about whether they were going for a doctorate in Psychology or Nurse Practitioner because they knew they were only going to have to pay back only a portion of the tuition. I also suspect from reading between the lines, that you or your spouse probably had friends, acquaintances or connections on the admission committee so the application process was merely just a formality for you. Now you boss around young 20 somethings who have to cow-tow to your ego for an good evaluation. You or no one else is going to stop me from putting the truth of this study out there. So you can insult me all you want. And I won't stop until I stir more nurses into action. I met with a reporter a coupe of years ago and can do more this time. There are thousands of real working nurses that agree. These are some of the facts I'm putting out there; and I invite anyone to read the study for themselves.

    . The authors simply took the template they had for a previous study on nurse to patient ratios and mortality rates and by their own admission, manipulated the data no less than 133 times supposedly without bias to make it fit the mold for the BSN study. The authors also admitted to excluding hospitals that didn't fit their data set. The criteria for the inclusion of certain data for the study was based solely on the discretion of the "so-called" 'experts' creating the study. And all those 'experts' were backed by those with pro-BSN agendas such as the AACN (American Assoc. of Colleges of Nursing). But they insist that you have to trust their 'independent verification' that the results weren't biased. They took all this manipulated data and ran a logistics regression model to see what MIGHT happen if they was a 10% increase in BSN RNS.

    Now if you disagree with those facts which are in the study itself, well that's too bad.
    Last edit by avengingspirit1 on Apr 13
  8. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from nursel56
    I vowed to myself to stay out of this argument, but as of now I've failed....:-/ I'll just make the hopefully benign observation that market forces have largely obviated the need for schools to push hard on the BSN, as hospitals in large urban areas have such a large pool of applicants these days it makes sense for them to hire the highest-degreed individual, especially if they aren't going to pay them much more than they would an associate-degree nurse.

    Most of us offering advice to prospective nursing students suggest getting the BSN for strictly practical reasons, whatever we think of the validity of Aiken's 2003 study.

    It seems we had "patient outcomes" threads every two weeks for years, but now I hardly see any.
    I agree with you. And employers have the right to choose whatever candidates they want. There is no shortage of nurses right now. That may change as more baby-boomer nurses retire. I just don't believe that any nurse with 20+ years of experience and specialty certifications should be forced to go back and get a BSN within a certain time frame or risk termination. But that is between the nurses and their employers.
  9. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    And I won't stop until I stir more nurses into action. I met with a reporter a coupe of years ago and can do more this time. There are thousands of real working nurses that agree. These are some of the facts I'm putting out there; and I invite anyone to read the study for themselves.
    Do you think you are really "stirring" any nurses into action? Where is the link to the news story from your meeting with the reporter a couple years ago?

    You say you are putting the "facts" out there. What are those facts? Cite them here, as you have been asked to do numerous times before.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The authors simply took the template they had for a previous study on nurse to patient ratios and mortality rates and by their own admission, manipulated the data no less than 133 times supposedly without bias to make it fit the mold for the BSN study.
    The 2011 Aiken study which I assume you are talking about used pre-existing raw data from a prior nursing survey; they used this data in a novel way. This is very common in research and it in no way implies the study is invalid. Again, consider the thousands of studies that use NHANES data.

    Cite the paper where the authors say they manipulated the data 133 times. Cite the quote right here.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The authors also admitted to excluding hospitals that didn't fit their data set. The criteria for the inclusion of certain data for the study was based solely on the discretion of the "so-called" 'experts' creating the study.
    Here is the actual exclusion criterion:

    "The hospitals included in our sample represent 86% of all general acute hospitals in the four states and account for over 90% of all adult general, vascular, and orthopedic surgical patient discharges in those states. Hospitals not analyzed are primarily small hospitals with fewer than 10 nurse respondents, which we regard as too few to provide reliable estimates of the hospital-level nursing characteristics of interest." - Aiken et al. (2011)


    Quote from avengingspirit1
    And all those 'experts' were backed by those with pro-BSN agendas such as the AACN (American Assoc. of Colleges of Nursing).
    Here is the actual funding information:

    "Funding for this study was provided by the National Institute of Nursing Research, National Institutes of Health (R01NR04513, Linda H. Aiken, PI), the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and the College of Nursing, University of Florida. "

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    But they insist that you have to trust their 'independent verification' that the results weren't biased.
    Show us where the bias is; cite the study where you feel that it is biased.


    Quote from avengingspirit1
    They took all this manipulated data and ran a logistics regression model to see what MIGHT happen if they was a 10% increase in BSN RNS.
    You understand what a logistic regression is right?

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Now if you disagree with those facts which are in the study itself, well that's too bad.
    There are no "facts" here.
  10. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Do you think you are really "stirring" any nurses into action? Where is the link to the news story from your meeting with the reporter a couple years ago?

    You say you are putting the "facts" out there. What are those facts? Cite them here, as you have been asked to do numerous times before.



    The 2011 Aiken study which I assume you are talking about used pre-existing raw data from a prior nursing survey; they used this data in a novel way. This is very common in research and it in no way implies the study is invalid. Again, consider the thousands of studies that use NHANES data.

    Cite the paper where the authors say they manipulated the data 133 times. Cite the quote right here.



    Here is the actual exclusion criterion:

    "The hospitals included in our sample represent 86% of all general acute hospitals in the four states and account for over 90% of all adult general, vascular, and orthopedic surgical patient discharges in those states. Hospitals not analyzed are primarily small hospitals with fewer than 10 nurse respondents, which we regard as too few to provide reliable estimates of the hospital-level nursing characteristics of interest." - Aiken et al. (2011)




    Here is the actual funding information:

    "Funding for this study was provided by the National Institute of Nursing Research, National Institutes of Health (R01NR04513, Linda H. Aiken, PI), the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, and the College of Nursing, University of Florida. "



    Show us where the bias is; cite the study where you feel that it is biased.




    You understand what a logistic regression is right?



    There are no "facts" here.
    The facts are in the study itself; but you have to know have to sift through all the corporate-speak. Something you don't seem to be able to do. It requires thinking outside the box, which is how most problems in the real world get solved. And by the way I said "backed" not funded. There is a difference which involves simple reading comprehension. Get away from the corporate-speak, learn to think for yourself, then post post me back. And yes, I've seen many other sites and blogs and plenty of nurses are angry. And I will keep pushing till there's more spotlight on this specific topic. There has been much recent news about the expense and nonsense going on at four year schools. Move away from sheltered thought and read about it.
  11. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The facts are in the study itself; but you have to know have to sift through all the corporate-speak. Something you don't seem to be able to do. It requires thinking outside the box, which is how most problems in the real world get solved. And by the way I said "backed" not funded. There is a difference which involves simple reading comprehension. Get away from the corporate-speak, learn to think for yourself, then post post me back. And yes, I've seen many other sites and blogs and plenty of nurses are angry. And I will keep pushing till there's more spotlight on this specific topic. There has been much recent news about the expense and nonsense going on at four year schools. Move away from sheltered thought and read about it.
    Cite sources.
  12. by   TiffyRN
    I'm still waiting on the "breaking news" we have been promised for years exposing the conspiracy of nursing academia. I swear I'll send you a Starbucks gift card if it ever comes out and they will verify that "avenging spirit" was their deep throat.
  13. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from TiffyRN
    I'm still waiting on the "breaking news" we have been promised for years exposing the conspiracy of nursing academia. I swear I'll send you a Starbucks gift card if it ever comes out and they will verify that "avenging spirit" was their deep throat.
    Now it's time to sit back and wait for the attack.

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