BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 7

by MunoRN

26,078 Views | 240 Comments

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative. About 3 years ago I sat... Read More


  1. 2
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    The same people who will defend associate's degrees to the death are often the same people who gripe about not being seen as a "professional."

    *** Interesting. I have not observed that, either in person or here on all nurses.
    Me either. I never took an account of the people on here who complain about not being seen as a professional to see if they were ADN or BSN. You?

    Quote from PMFB-RN
    Most of the people who go to the community college around here are going to be some sort of tech/assistant, or to be a welder, auto repairman, or just as a stepping stone to the University.

    *** Or nurses!


    I'm not sure that this person knows the difference between a community college and a vo-tech.


    Quote from PMFB-RN

    *** Wages are much preferable to salary.
    Agreed. I make more per hour as a nurse than I did as a mid-level associate attorney once you consider how many "unpaid" hours I spent working under salary. And when I'm done I get to hand off to another employee, say "Here ya go, GOOD LUCK!," go home and RELAX.
    nursel56 and PMFB-RN like this.
  2. 0
    Quote from SummitAP
    Then, in the name of financial and personal success, consider this:

    In my state and many many others, the average job search time for ASN NG RNs is twice as long, a year or more, vs BSN new grads. That and the jobs available for ASN NGs are usually not higher paying hospital jobs. It may take many ASN NGs 2-3 years to get into a hospital job. Many more ASN NGs become unhirable "stale grads" than do BSN grads.
    I'd be interested to see the statistics on this from your and "many many other" states.
  3. 0
    In my area
    a) it takes 1 more semester to get your BSN over your ADN, and both were equally affordable when factoring in grants and scholarships.
    b) the BSN can be earned in a total shorter amount of time.
    c) the last thing I want to think about as a new grad is turning around and going back for more school.

    Hospitals in my area are going Magnet, and while I do not think this improves patient care, having the BSN gives you
    better job outcomes over the abundance of ADN programs in the area.
  4. 4
    Quote from dirtyhippiegirl
    ADNs have a much harder time finding employment, especially hospital employment, in my neck of the woods than BSNs do. The largest academic hospital in the area won't be hiring ADNs at all starting in January.
    Again, there are those for whom a BSN is an obvious choice; those who intend to move on beyond a BSN for instance, or those who want to work at many of the "largest academic hospitals", as you pointed out. The universities on which these hospitals are based, are selling a product that could potentially have trouble competing in the marketplace by itself, so some manipulation of the market is needed. For those institutions that both sell the product and essentially buy the product back, there is the opportunity to manipulate demand by saying they will only buy the product they produced. Sort of like if you own a hospital owned by Dickies scrubs, what brand of scrubs do think they will require that you wear?

    I don't really fault BSN programs for this, it's supply and demand and they need demand for their product. I do think it's worthwhile for us as Nurses to understand the reasoning behind this to help us make informed choices.
  5. 1
    MunroRN, your contention that only hospitals affiliated with BSN granting Universities prefer BSN's not only sounds like a conspiracy theory, it doesn't reflect reality.

    EVERY hospital in Denver has at least BSN preferred, some positions list BSN preferred and BSN required within 2-3 years of hire. One hospital that is not a university hospital will no longer hire ASNs even with experience. The rural hospitals have "BSN preferred for new grad positions at least.

    RedHead Nurse98:
    http://www.oswahcr.com/documents/Nur...ge_Mancino.pdf
    2011 NSNA survey: After 4 months, 10% more trad BSN employed than ADN. My understanding is the disparity grows with time. Note that this doesn't track the acute vs nonacute disparity.

    There is a CA study that shows this disparity that I will look for. I'll also try to find the average job search time disparity stats that show ADN job searches are taking 50% longer.
    Last edit by SummitRN on Nov 18, '12
    hiddencatRN likes this.
  6. 0
    Quote from SummitAP
    MunroRN, your contention that only hospitals affiliated with BSN granting Universities prefer BSN's not only sounds like a conspiracy theory, it doesn't reflect reality.

    EVERY hospital in Denver has at least BSN preferred, some positions list BSN preferred and BSN required within 2-3 years of hire. One hospital that is not a university hospital will no longer hire ASNs even with experience. The rural hospitals have "BSN preferred for new grad positions at least.

    edhead_NURSE98! http://www.oswahcr.com/documents/Nur...ge_Mancino.pdf
    2011 NSNA survey: After 4 months, 10% more trad BSN employed than ADN. My understanding is the disparity grows with time. I'll to find the average job search time disparity stats.
    I did not say that "only hospitals affiliated with BSN granting Universities prefer BSNs", I stated that if you intend on working at an academic hospital, then a BSN is definitely worthwhile. This varies from area to area, it's not really accurate to take a characteristics specific to a local area and generalize it to the entire country. What RN's in your area and what RN's in my area experience might be very different.

    Conspiracy theories are ideas that are unproven and often seem far fetched. The idea that Universities see some benefit in increasing demand for their own product came from the Dean of a local BSN program, not some paranoid delusion. While we're on the subject of conspiracy theories though, we recently had a large consulting group come through. They identified that we could save money by increasing RN FTE's, and suggested one way of doing this was to hire more BSN's, as they often need to make more money due to higher loan amounts.

    In major urban centers, where most if not all hospitals have some sort of affiliation with a University, you will benefit from a BSN, however not all Nurses intend on working in major Urban centers.

    It's important to understand the motivations of many (but not all) employers who require or prefer BSN's as this has been seen by many as a sign that all employers see significant differences in ADN and BSN graduates, and therefore it only makes sense to do away with ADN programs. Understanding the reasoning behind this demand helps us make more appropriate decisions in how we manage our profession.

    So if it's up to you, how would you change Nursing education?
    Last edit by MunoRN on Nov 18, '12
  7. 1
    Leaving aside many of the other great points made in this thread, one feels the number of hospitals going "BSN preferred" or even required is simply because they can.

    The same forces that have impacted college education are felt by four year nursing programs; that is there simply are more ways to fund such an education than historically possible. Even if this means going into debt many students in particular younger ones see a four year college degree as some sort of right of passage regardless of the major. Indeed often it seems the choice of major and or employment post graduation seems to rank lower on the scale than other factors.

    It is even possible to take out debt for ABSN programs which again increases the number of total BSN graduates in the market.

    Couple the rise of four year grads with shrinking inpatient beds in many areas of this country and you've got a glut of nurses all chasing the few openings that are available.

    In the past mandating the BSN has failed often because it caused staffing shortages. Hospitals had to come off their high horses and start hiring ADN/diploma grads to get feet on the floors. Have a very funny feeling this time at least in certain areas of the country this time the BSN mandates will stick, well at least for top tier facilities.

    Here in NYC for example about ten or more hospitals have closed over the past eight or so years and unless things turn around financially a few more (mostly in Brooklyn) are probably going to fall as well. Yet there has not been a corresponding decrease in the local nursing education market. Indeed new programs are opening (Swedish Massage Institute), including lots of ABSN programs.

    Even having the coveted BSN is no promise of a gig around here either. Hospitals are being picky on that level and turning down new grad BSNs and or letting them go before their orientation is over.

    All the advertising and promotion over "Magnet Status" isn't helping either.
    SummitRN likes this.
  8. 2
    My BSN is useless.


    Gotcha

    Sooo tired of this discussion
    Last edit by Anoetos on Nov 18, '12
    Kandy83 and decembergrad2011 like this.
  9. 1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Leaving aside many of the other great points made in this thread, one feels the number of hospitals going "BSN preferred" or even required is simply because they can.
    . . .
    Couple the rise of four year grads with shrinking inpatient beds in many areas of this country and you've got a glut of nurses all chasing the few openings that are available. . .

    In the past mandating the BSN has failed often because it caused staffing shortages. Hospitals had to come off their high horses and start hiring ADN/diploma grads to get feet on the floors. Have a very funny feeling this time at least in certain areas of the country this time the BSN mandates will stick, well at least for top tier facilities.

    Here in NYC for example about ten or more hospitals have closed over the past eight or so years and unless things turn around financially a few more (mostly in Brooklyn) are probably going to fall as well. Yet there has not been a corresponding decrease in the local nursing education market. Indeed new programs are opening (Swedish Massage Institute), including lots of ABSN programs.

    Even having the coveted BSN is no promise of a gig around here either. Hospitals are being picky on that level and turning down new grad BSNs and or letting them go before their orientation is over.

    All the advertising and promotion over "Magnet Status" isn't helping either.
    I think this describes the situation in many, if not most of the major urban areas. In my own sleepy suburb of NYC and Washington, DC - otherwise known as Philadelphia - "BSN preferred" is an endangered species of job posting, having been nearly completely eradicated by the the oppotunistic onslaught of the non-native species, "BSN required." The prospects for the total obliteration of the former are very good, given the record numbers of nursing school graduates combined with low levels of nursing job creation.

    The ANA probably didn't see their vision of the BSN as the minimum nursing credential being made manifest in quite this fashion, but manifest it is and frankly, it's hard to see the ADN surviving for much longer, except in some of the more medically underserved areas. Having final realized this cherished dream, the ANA can now concentrate on their new vision: Making the DNP the minimum credential for nurse practitioners.
    SummitRN likes this.
  10. 0
    I believe in getting BSN as entry. Research shows that death rates are lower for the patients who were taken care by BSN or higher educated nurses. I have read this on my books. Plus, BSN is considered to be what makes you a "professional".


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