BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it. - page 9

While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10... Read More

  1. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    0
    You should be thrilled. Speaking of tactics...after several unsuccessful attempts to elicit a response, you got one!

    Btw, it wasn't a "one time thing." I just now chose to mention it.

    Afterall, this isn't really a debate. People who have a GED will defend a GED. People who have a bachelor's degree in underwater basket weaving and work at a fast food joint will defend their brilliant idea to obtain the basket weaving degree.

    The facts speak for themselves. In the end, that's all that really matters.

    Now, pick that apart piece by piece, out of context, and have a ball!
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  3. Visit  brandy1017 profile page
    0
    Quote from SummitAP
    Your interpretation of stats is ludicrous. The bias towards BSNs is predominantly new grads though still some towards ADNs, thus looking at an overall RN population is misleading. The new grad stats I posted earlier show a 10% more employed instead of 3% more employed.

    Also, where are you getting this idea that there are no clinical placements for more BSN students if ADN programs shut down?
    In Denver, ASN programs are losing their placements to BSN programs. In fact, one longtime ASN program shut down last year stating this as a reason.

    Many ASN programs are sending their students over 100 miles away to find clinical sites.

    With 10+ qualified applicants for every nursing school slot, students will make the sacrifice, as they do now.
    While in Denver this is the case, it is not the case everywhere. In the midwest where I live and work ADN's are still able to get jobs and I know several ADN new grad RN's hired by two different hospital systems. There could be more systems taking new ADN's, don't know personally. Where I work the RN's run the gamut from ADN to BSN to direct entry MSN who are currently finishing their NP. About half the staff is planning on getting an NP and leaving bedside care, some have already graduated. Some were able to get jobs easily as an NP, others struggled to find a job. If you think it is hard to get an RN job, I'm sure the NP is even harder as the market is being saturated with half dozen or so colleges offering the NP program.

    Where I work we have both ADN and BSN student clinicals from several different schools. Over the years there have been hospital consolidations and even closures in the inner city, coupled with new hospitals being built in the suburbs so jobs are still available.

    As far as your neck of the woods, I've heard Colorado is a difficult place to get an RN job with a lot of competition. It really depends where you live and how outgoing you are and who you know!
    Last edit by brandy1017 on Nov 19, '12
  4. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    3
    So...Are we all in agreement that a BSN is only necessary because the hospitals can be picky, or use it as a tie breaker? I mean this discussion has been going on for days now, and not one defender of having a BSN for entry into the Nursing profession has given any reason whatsoever why a BSN should be the minimum requirement. Well again with the exception of "Because the hospitals want it, so there!!"

    As a reminder, The OP wrote this article to explain why they decided that an ADN was indeed sufficient education to carry out what is expected as an ENTRY level floor nurse.

    So pretty please, with sugar on top with whipped cream and a succulent cherry, "Can ANYONE give a valid reason other than" "Because the hospitals can be picky, or use it as a tie breaker?" or "Because the hospitals want it, so there!!?" that an aspiring ENTRY LEVEL Nurse should go the BSN route vice the ADN route? I will concede that it will be a tie breaker and that YES, it will be preferred over an ADN. But should it be? Does the extra time and money spent to obtain a BSN over an ADN translate to commensurate gains in skill over a new grad ADN, ie does the extra time and money you put in make you a better nurse by enough to justify the time and money investment? Does it make you better at all?
    mya612, tewdles, and redhead_NURSE98! like this.
  5. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    1
    Continuing education, higher education, or whatever you want to call it is the natural progression of every profession known to man!

    Look at history. Prostitutes were practically plucked off the streets and transformed into nurses without any education! Furthermore, they were "successful" for the standards of that time. So, you could argue that NO education is necessary to function as a nurse, lawyer, or anything else for the sake of argument.

    My grandparents had jobs that didn't require an education when they started, but toward the end of their careers, the company wouldn't even let you in the door without a degree. Why did they start requiring a degree when a man with an 8th grade education was literally deemed one of the best employees in the company? Maybe because times have changed, education is more attainable, and there's no excuse NOT to have the most educated, motivated professionals in the field?

    I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. In fact, I don't think ANY answer will matter because you have your opinion, which is fine, and that's not going to change.

    So, here's a new question.....why do we require any education for nurses? Why not hire prostitutes?

    Just for fun, why do we let women vote? The world still turned without women voters. How about freeing the slaves? The world didn't stop when we had slaves either.

    It's called progress. There's your answer.
    PureLifeRN likes this.
  6. Visit  redhead_NURSE98! profile page
    1
    Ohhh, I think you forgot to mention Hitler and tie it to this somehow.
    nursel56 likes this.
  7. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    1
    [QUOTE=Ntheboat2;7039782]Continuing education, higher education, or whatever you want to call it is the natural progression of every profession known to man!

    More education is a natural progression because as things become more complicated (a side effect of progress), more education is needed to keep up. And when an ENTRY LEVEL Nurse's Scope of practice encompasses more than an ADN education can match, then I will be all for a higher education requirement for it. Until then there is just no justification for it.
    tntrn likes this.
  8. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    Look at history. Prostitutes were practically plucked off the streets and transformed into nurses without any education! Furthermore, they were "successful" for the standards of that time. So, you could argue that NO education is necessary to function as a nurse, lawyer, or anything else for the sake of argument.

    These prostitutes you speak of were not nurses in the sense of today's nurse. Sure they were taught some basic lifesaving skills, and they had the title, but their technical expertise would not even match the EMT-B of today (BTW, the education commitment to become an EMT-B takes 1 semester at a community college to obtain). NOT. EVEN. CLOSE!!!
  9. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    My grandparents had jobs that didn't require an education when they started, but toward the end of their careers, the company wouldn't even let you in the door without a degree. Why did they start requiring a degree when a man with an 8th grade education was literally deemed one of the best employees in the company? Maybe because times have changed, education is more attainable, and there's no excuse NOT to have the most educated, motivated professionals in the field?
    I would have to know what exactly it was your grand parents did to really respond to this. What generally applies though is that when technology and methods of commerce or services change, new education must be obtained to keep up with them. And someday I hope this will be true in Nursing, as it will broaden the nurse's Scope of Practice. Again, when this happens and more education becomes necessary to handle these new responsibilities, then I will be all for making this extra education a requirement. But at this time, on Nov 19 2012, it is not necessary, and should not be forced on aspiring entry level (there' that term again) Nurses just because it sounds good.
  10. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    0
    Quote from PRICHARILLAisMISSED
    These prostitutes you speak of were not nurses in the sense of today's nurse. Sure they were taught some basic lifesaving skills, and they had the title, but their technical expertise would not even match the EMT-B of today (BTW, the education commitment to become an EMT-B takes 1 semester at a community college to obtain). NOT. EVEN. CLOSE!!!
    I didn't say they were a nurse in the same sense of today's nurse.

    That's what we're talking about - change!

    Asking why a BSN should be an entry level requirement is the exact same debate I'm sure many people had when they made the ASN an entry level requirement.

    Furthermore, the reasons are the same.
  11. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    0
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    I'm not sure what kind of answer you're looking for. In fact, I don't think ANY answer will matter because you have your opinion, which is fine, and that's not going to change.
    I'm looking for a justification to spend an extra two years and 10's of thousands of dollars to get a job that really doesn't require this sacrifice to be carried out, and carried out well.

    I am completely capable of changing my mind. The thing is it takes real evidence and not empty platitudes to make me do so. On another post you made me see things a little differently. It's possible you can here too, but I need more than what you're giving us here to do it...
  12. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    0
    [QUOTE=PRICHARILLAisMISSED;7039804]
    Quote from Ntheboat2
    . And when an ENTRY LEVEL Nurse's Scope of practice encompasses more than an ADN education can match,.
    The evidence which ADN advocates keep trying to sweep under the rug already suggests that it does. Patients with BSN nurses have better outcomes and *significantly* lower mortality rates.

    I know, I know. It's all an accident.
  13. Visit  PRICHARILLAisMISSED profile page
    0
    Quote from Ntheboat2

    So, here's a new question.....why do we require any education for nurses? Why not hire prostitutes?

    Just for fun, why do we let women vote? The world still turned without women voters. How about freeing the slaves? The world didn't stop when we had slaves either.
    We require education for today's nurses because of the tremendous responsibilities they carry-and you understand this far better than I. In fact I'm giving up a six figure job just so I can pursue education full time so I can someday get to where you ARE NOW! But as it stands currently (on Nov 19, 2012) the education provided by an ADN seems to be sufficient preparation to shoulder this responsibility.

    Oh, and we let women vote because even though the world still spun when they were not allowed to, a terrible injustice was happening on its surface while it spun. And to say "Why do we LET women vote" is somewhat misleading, as to "Let" someone do anything implies that we had a right to another option. Women should have been able to vote as soon as the concept of voting was implemented. It was one of the deepest travesty's of our history that women had to wait to do ANYTHING that men could do.

    Same thing with freeing the slaves. Slavery was one hell of a dark page in the history of our civilization. While the REAL reasons we stopped it was political, the bottom line is that it was the right thing to do, as it should never have happened to begin with.

    BTW Ntheboat2, I know you're not for these things( slavery and women being denied freedoms), but you threw it out there so I just had to respond
  14. Visit  Ntheboat2 profile page
    0
    This "debate" is not a new one. As I mentioned, nurses required zero education at one point in time. Then, there were diploma programs.
    I'm sure when the topic of "phasing out" diploma programs came up, people had these same exact opinions and said, "NEVER!" How many diploma nurses do you see now?

    Then, there's the lovely debate about LPN's being phased out. Of course, every LPN will say that's not true, and it might not be true in other parts of the world, but it is true where I live and in many parts of the US. The hospitals here no longer hires LPNs and the few who are left are working on their RN. They didn't tell LPNs that they had to go and get a higher education....they just quit hiring them.

    What's really the difference between raising the entry level requirement and not hiring those who have a certain degree? Either way, they aren't working, and if they are then they are only working in certain facilities like doctor's offices or LTC.

    The standards for CRNA's are higher, and I'm sure there was a debate about that too and people who said it'll never happen. Now, Nurse Practitioners are next on the list.

    Who knows when it'll happen, but it's only a matter of time.


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