BSN as entry into practice; why we decided against it.

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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While hopefully avoiding stoking the ADN - BSN debate unnecessarily, I thought I'd share my experience with my state's consideration of BSN as entry into practice, as well as the BSN-in-10 initiative.

About 3 years ago I sat on a council charged with evaluating and making recommendations on the educational requirements for Nursing. We worked closely with both employers and schools of Nursing to evaluate needs and capabilities and to coordinate the two.

We initially reviewed the evidence, most notably Linda Aiken's work on the relationship between educational level and quality of Nursing care. On the surface her work seems to clearly support the BSN model, however upon closer inspection we could not show that improved Nursing specific outcomes were due to higher proportions of BSN nurses, at least in terms of a BSN being causative rather than just correlative. While her studies did show a relationship between better outcomes and Hospitals with a higher proportion of BSN Nurses, she failed to adequately account for the fact that Hospitals with higher proportions of BSN nurses also have many factors that would be likely to contribute to better outcomes. For instance, predominately BSN hospitals (teaching hospitals) tend to have better staffing ratios, better support systems, better funding, and are more likely to be "early adopters" of practice improvements. Aiken's accounting for the effects of these differences were grossly inadequate. When her data was properly corrected for these differences, there was no clear difference between ADN and BSN prepared Nurses in areas examined.

We then looked at differences in curriculum between ADN and BSN programs and found surprisingly few differences. Pre-requisites varied among both ADN and BSN programs, with the only consistent difference being that BSN programs required a Nutrition class. We had assumed that the Statistics requirement was also a universal difference, but what we found was that this was only different in older ADN programs, newer ADN programs carried the same statistics requirement with some requiring a higher level of statistics than even the top BSN program in the state. In the program itself, the curriculum is closely regulated by both accreditation groups and the State Board, both of which hold the curriculum of both types of program to the same standards, minus the BSN program's additional leadership and community health classes.

Considering the minimal differences between ADN and BSN curriculum, we questioned whether there might be differences related to the 'caliber' of student admitted to each type of program, we were particularly surprised by what we found. Two of the ADN programs in the state required a previous bachelor's degree to even apply, more were considering this. The typical minimum GPA in core prerequisites for competitive entry ADN programs was 3.8, for BSN programs it was 3.6.

The biggest factor was what we would need to do to move to only BSN programs. Our current BSN programs already have a shortage of clinical spots, so expanding our current BSN programs was not an option. The only viable option was to take our ADN programs and simply start calling them BSN programs by adding community health and leadership classes and requiring the additional "general" credits needed to fulfill the credit requirements of a bachelors. To do this, community colleges would have to partner with Universities who would then grant BSN's for a (large) fee. This would essentially mean the only difference between an ADN and BSN would be 8 core credits, about 35 general credits, and about $18,000.

The other concern with limiting RN education opportunities to BSN programs by expanding BSN programs was the demographic makeup of Nursing students. More than half of those currently going into Nursing are "second career" students. These students typically are not in positions where attending a direct BSN program is feasible. In my state, BSN programs are only available in two urban areas. It's much easier for an 18 year old to drop everything and move to one of these two areas than it is for someone who has kids in school, owns a home, has a spouse with an immovable job, etc. As a result we were concerned about the effect such a drastic change in Nursing student demographics might have.

A survey of employers found no glaring preference for BSN prepared Nurses in my state, in fact we were surprised at the number of Hospitals that expressed a preference for ADN new grads as they found their bedside training requirements were less, this was likely due to the limitations in clinical experience in BSN programs. Only one hospital in the state expressed a preference for BSN graduates, although they did not require a BSN, this was the Hospital associated with the state's largest BSN program. They did express that their preference for BSN's was somewhat self-serving; when part of the job market is "BSN-only", it helps maintain demand for a degree that's fairly similar yet typically 400% more expensive than the ADN option. This would seem to shed some light on why "BSN-only" employers are primarily hospitals associated with Universities.

In the end we determined that we could not support the goal of BSN as entry to practice at this time. We did however endorse the concept of BSN-in-10 through ADN to BSN programs. Although we didn't go so far as to advocate BSN-in-10 as a requirement. This was partly due to reviewing North Dakota's failed BSN-in-10 attempt, as well as the demographics involved in the Nursing workforce. The number of experienced Nurses who leave the workforce is a real problem. This attrition often occurs between 5 and 10 years. Adding a requirement that will take additional time as well as cost, in many cases, up to half of their yearly salary would too often serve as the primary factor in a decision to leave Nursing. There are huge advantages to additional schooling after a period of time in the workforce, one could argue advantages that exceed that of direct BSN programs, however it was not felt that the loss of experienced Nurses outweighed those advantages. But when feasible, all ADN Nurses should be actively encouraged to pursue an ADN to BSN.

As a BSN prepared Nurse, I was expecting confirmation that my money was spell spent, and I'm not saying it necessarily wasn't, however many of the assumptions I held may have been overstated or just incorrect. For many, direct BSN programs are worth the expense, for other's it's not. What's most important is that students can make an informed decision.

A BSN probably should be the minimum point of entry, I'd agree.

Personally, I'm just pursuing a BSN because I'll probably want to go 'Advanced Practice'. It's nice to have options.

I'm going ADN -> BSN. The cheapest, but longest route.

If I didn't have such plans, I wouldn't think about getting a bachelor's. Why would I assume extra debt when I'm not going to be paid any more than ADN or diploma-prepared nurses?

That is exactly my point, Chica...

Unless a BSN in an obstacle to an APN standing, WHY should a floor nurse bother with a BSN. I'm sure most would agree that it will not make them a better floor nurse (by "floor," I mean non management). It just seems like no poster here has an answer for this. It seems that the only real reason to get a BSN (if you do not intend to someday get an APN standing, anyway) is because it looks better for the facility to say that "We hire only BSN trained nurses!"

There is ABSOLUTELY no benefit for the nurse who is putting the money, and most importantly, TIME into obtaining the BSN. NONE!!! But because it is "Common Knowledge" that "Education is good," people say almost in a knee jerk fashion that maybe it is better for a BSN to be the entry level into nursing.

Remember, we're talking ENTRY LEVEL HERE!!! If a nurse wants to be in a management position someday, then it would be on them to obtain that BSN. But for ENTRY LEVEL, can some BSN supporters PLEASE give a good reason other than "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky!" for aspiring nurses to spenf the time and money toward a degree that will in no way make them better at the ENTRY LEVEL job they aspire to attain? "Anyone, anyone...Bueler, Bueler....."

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
Finally, I know the difference between wages and salary very well. That's exactly why I said wage (not salary) because nurses, while wanting to be "professionals," get paid wages, while almost every other profession you can point a finger at gets a salary. Of course, most salary positions employ people with a bachelor's degree.

*** If the price of being considered a "professional" by people who I don't even know is having to tolerate salary rather than wages I'll take a pass on the "professional" title. I feel I get tons of respect from my patients, co-workers, physicians and other members of the care team. I don't need others to call me a "professional", though this only an issue here on allnurses, not in real life.

[/b] PLEASE give a good reason other than "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky!" ....."

This isn't another reason, but I can put "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky" in another way...

Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.

Tons of professions require a bachelor's degree for ENTRY level positions. Whether it's been made "official" in nursing yet or not...BSN preferred and BSN required are becoming more and more common at the same time you're seeing more and more unemployed nurses.

Yeah. A coffee server with a history, English, philosophy etc. degree that is underemployed. They weren't saying that it was required to be a barista!

I pondered that, but didn't really see the relevance...whatever...

You forgot to add nursing degree to that list!

Specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Trauma Rapid Response.
This isn't another reason, but I can put "Because the hospitals can afford to be picky" in another way...

Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.

Tons of professions require a bachelor's degree for ENTRY level positions. Whether it's been made "official" in nursing yet or not...BSN preferred and BSN required are becoming more and more common at the same time you're seeing more and more unemployed nurses.

*** I agree with all of your comments but one. You list perfectly good reasons to obtain a BSN and you are right. However the part about "tons of professions require a bachelors degree for ENTRY". I say so what? I could give a damn about how other professions choose to conduct themselves. Much of it is only degree inflation anyway. The diversity brought to nursing through the availabiliety of the local community college nursing program is our strength.

Specializes in Critical Care.

Hospitals are steering toward BSN nurses. Have you looked at all the, "I graduated a year ago and still don't have a job" threads? Nursing isn't the "safe" job choice anymore. If you have two applicants that look exactly alike on paper and the ONLY thing setting them apart is that one has a BSN, who are you going to pick? BSN nurses make the same on the floor so having to pay more won't deter anyone.

So, how about....it's good to get a bachelor's degree so that you can get a job? That's my good reason.

Again, not necessarily true:

"There were few differences in percentages between practicing and non-practicing RNs in terms of educational preparation in 2012. Thirty-five percent of practicing nurses are BSN prepared as compared to 31 percent of non-practicing nurses indicating little preference among all employers for BSN prepared nurses. Associate degree nurses comprise a slightly larger percentage (67%) of the non-practicing nurse population than the overall sample population (65%)."

Again, the question of which is better is sort of irrelevant; if we move to all direct BSN programs and put all of our current Nursing students in half as many clinical spots, would a BSN still be preferable even with half as much clinical opportunity?

Specializes in PICU, NICU, L&D, Public Health, Hospice.

Again, I don't believe that the evidence supports the thought that a BSN is necessary for a nurse to be able to provide competent and effective bedside nursing. I do believe that higher educational levels improve our critical thinking skills, among other things.

It is wonderful that nurses seek to increase their formal education. I think it is fine when they don't and continue to practice good and compassionate nursing. I do not believe that professionalism is necessarily married to education, professional regard and respect are generally earned by our work behavior rather than by the alphabet salad after our names (when interacting with other health care disciplines).

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.

Your interpretation of stats is ludicrous. The bias towards BSNs is predominantly new grads though still some towards ADNs, thus looking at an overall RN population is misleading. The new grad stats I posted earlier show a 10% more employed instead of 3% more employed.

Also, where are you getting this idea that there are no clinical placements for more BSN students if ADN programs shut down?

In Denver, ASN programs are losing their placements to BSN programs. In fact, one longtime ASN program shut down last year stating this as a reason.

Many ASN programs are sending their students over 100 miles away to find clinical sites.

With 10+ qualified applicants for every nursing school slot, students will make the sacrifice, as they do now.

Specializes in Critical Care.

I didn't interpret those stats, the Arizona BON did, feel free to take it up with them.

The majority of ASN programs don't compete with BSN programs for spots, although all of those students would be added to the already overburdened BSN clinical placement spots. Do think there's plenty of BSN clinical spots, enough to support that shift? Do disagree that clinical spots are tight in many areas?

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.
I didn't interpret those stats, the Arizona BON did, feel free to take it up with them.
Finding a small difference in a whole population to discount an effect that has a slow effect on experienced RNs because it primarily effects new RNs? Then their reasoning is flawed for the reasons I stated. Hopefully you too can see how to critically analyze their illogical conclusion.

The majority of ASN programs don't compete with BSN programs for spots, although all of those students would be added to the already overburdened BSN clinical placement spots. Do think there's plenty of BSN clinical spots, enough to support that shift? Do disagree that clinical spots are tight in many areas?

Why could the ASN spots not take BSN students? Surely they do not only rotate to ambulatory care and physicians offices?

Specializes in Critical Care.
Finding a small difference in a whole population to discount an effect that has a slow effect on experienced RNs because it primarily effects new RNs? Then their reasoning is flawed for the reasons I stated. Hopefully you too can see how to critically analyze their illogical conclusion.

As I mentioned earlier, the AZ BON numbers were based only on new nurses (Nurses who were licensed for the first time within the last year), not the Nursing population as a whole.

Why could the ASN spots not take BSN students? Surely they do not only rotate to ambulatory care and physicians offices?

No, they rotate everywhere BSN students do, in my state the number of hours in each area is the same standard for both ADN and BSN programs.

We looked at whether it was feasible to have centrally located classes with clinicals 3 or 4 hours away. The best option for trying to achieve this was to clump clinicals and class time (a week of class time then a week of clinical time). The problem we had is that this goes against the direction Nursing education is trying to move, so essentially we'd be taking a step backwards. Since we can't centralize clinical spots, the better option was to de-centralize classes to better coordinate with clinical availability.

What we ended up deciding on was to geographically disperse the BSN curriculum and the BSN model, utilizing existing geographically dispersed educational facilities (Community Colleges).

Specializes in ICU + Infection Prevention.

That clears it up. So the analysis was only for new grads in AZ. That makes more sense. We can leave it at AZ not necessarily being representative of the rest of the nation, but it is a matter up to the state.

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