ADN's being pushed out - page 28

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned... Read More

  1. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    0
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Second, you would need to have separate licensing exams.
    *** Good point. The exam for the BSN grads would have to be much more comprehensive in scope than the current NCLEX RN is. This would mean a vast change would have to occure in BSN education since current programs teach to pass the same exam as the ADN programs.
  2. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    2
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Leaving aside your excellent post there is another fly in the "BSN" ointment. Not all students either just out of high school or returning can cope with four year college studies.

    BSN degrees do not function in a vacuum, and those students must meet the same entry, retention and graduation standards as everyone else on campus going for a four year degree.

    General and organic chemistry, finite math, statistics, 300 and even 400 level English, and so forth just aren't up everyone's street academically. But it makes no difference if one obtains all A's in nursing major courses, if you cannot cope with gen ed/core you aren't going to graduate.

    If you really want to deal with the real look to Canada and create two levels of professional nurse. Four year college grads would be RN's and ADN grads can be *whatever" title can be thought up that won't cause offence (much).

    Nursing must adapt to serve the needs on the ground of the local area. For instance here in NYS yes, the large "destination" hospitals like NYP and Mount Sinai maybe able to justify hiring only BSN grads for whatever reasons. But there are plenty of hospitals elsewhere in the state that manage fine with ADN grads.
    That's an understandable but nonetheless very inaccurate view of 2-year college curriculum and standards. The pre-Nursing program classes at a 2-year college are exactly the same as the classes one would take at a 4-year school. This is a requirement of all credit transfer agreements. The only difference is the location of the class. I remember going to school for my first (and ultimately unused) bachelors degree, a biology degree, I took my first quarter of the Organic chem series during the spring. I figured the second quarter of it would be hard if I waited a whole summer between the first and second quarter of the series so I should take the second quarter at the local community college, plus, I assumed it would be easier since it was at a community college. As it turned out, I was just one of many University students who falsely assumed a community college class would be easier, it was the hardest quarter of the series for me. The Universities largely dictate the standards that community colleges must follow since offering transferable credits is the majority of their business, and I don't know of any state that allows community colleges to teach to, or expect, a lower standard than their 4-year big brothers require. So, in general, if a student can't cut it at a 4-year school, then they can't cut it at a 2-year school either, and vice-versa.

    Despite my O-chem experience, I still had a bit of a slanted view of ADN programs, until I started with my local ADN programs. I graduated from one of the top 5 BSN programs in the country, yet the lowest GPA admitted to my local ADN program last quarter was 3.86, while my top 5 alma mater typically runs GPA lower limit around 3.00, in the same classes.

    I don't know of any Nursing programs that require 400 level English, although if you consider having previously taken 300 and 400 level classes to be an indicator of students who are more likely to "cut it" then it's actually ADN students who win that comparison; far more ADN applicants have previous bachelor's degrees than BSN applicants.
    Susie2310 and PMFB-RN like this.
  3. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from MunoRN
    That's an understandable but nonetheless very inaccurate view of 2-year college curriculum and standards. The pre-Nursing program classes at a 2-year college are exactly the same as the classes one would take at a 4-year school. This is a requirement of all credit transfer agreements. The only difference is the location of the class. I remember going to school for my first (and ultimately unused) bachelors degree, a biology degree, I took my first quarter of the Organic chem series during the spring. I figured the second quarter of it would be hard if I waited a whole summer between the first and second quarter of the series so I should take the second quarter at the local community college, plus, I assumed it would be easier since it was at a community college. As it turned out, I was just one of many University students who falsely assumed a community college class would be easier, it was the hardest quarter of the series for me. The Universities largely dictate the standards that community colleges must follow since offering transferable credits is the majority of their business, and I don't know of any state that allows community colleges to teach to, or expect, a lower standard than their 4-year big brothers require. So, in general, if a student can't cut it at a 4-year school, then they can't cut it at a 2-year school either, and vice-versa.

    Despite my O-chem experience, I still had a bit of a slanted view of ADN programs, until I started with my local ADN programs. I graduated from one of the top 5 BSN programs in the country, yet the lowest GPA admitted to my local ADN program last quarter was 3.86, while my top 5 alma mater typically runs GPA lower limit around 3.00, in the same classes.

    I don't know of any Nursing programs that require 400 level English, although if you consider having previously taken 300 and 400 level classes to be an indicator of students who are more likely to "cut it" then it's actually ADN students who win that comparison; far more ADN applicants have previous bachelor's degrees than BSN applicants.


    Cannot speak for where your community (two year) and four year college/university are but at least here in NYC for the City University there is a huge difference and it begins with admission requirements. Testing FAQs - Testing - CUNY

    Under NYC statues any student who graduates from a NYC high school is automatically promised a spot in CUNY. Where one goes, that is to a four year or community college depends upon the above. Back in my day the senior colleges (four year schools) only basically required one graduate with a high school average of 80% or better. That wasn't working out and thus again see the above.

    How classes and such are taught does vary in the CUNY system by which type of school one attends. For instance at Hunter-Bellevue IIRC the chemistry classes are not just pre-nursing and student nurses but (were) made up of all Hunter students studying health sciences. This included the "Pre-Health) majors such as pre-med, dentist and right down to physician assistant. On the ground this translated to chemistry courses taught at not always the 'chemistry for weeines" level some nursing students would like. This of course is natural for a four year college, but not all what some expect.


    Pre-nursing sequence for the ADN programs at each of the CUNY two year programs are basically the same with perhaps slight variations: Nursing

    To my knowledge not one of the ADN programs requires full organic chemistry, some may have a fundamentals of general and organic however. While NYS mandates organic chemistry for most if not all BofS candidates. Here is the recently revised Hunter-Bellevue School of Nursing curriculum: NEW GENERIC PATHWAY PROGRAM " Hunter College
  4. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    To my knowledge not one of the ADN programs requires full organic chemistry, some may have a fundamentals of general and organic however. While NYS mandates organic chemistry for most if not all BofS candidates. Here is the recently revised Hunter-Bellevue School of Nursing curriculum: NEW GENERIC PATHWAY PROGRAM €” Hunter College
    *** Some BSN programs in your state, and maybe some others require O chem, however a BSN, or MSN for that matter is NO indication that a nurse has taken O chem. Many BSN programs do not require it at all (nor should they IMO). The BSN programs here at the UW schools do not require organic chem.
    Susie2310 likes this.
  5. Visit  MunoRN profile page
    2
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Cannot speak for where your community (two year) and four year college/university are but at least here in NYC for the City University there is a huge difference and it begins with admission requirements. Testing FAQs - Testing - CUNY

    Under NYC statues any student who graduates from a NYC high school is automatically promised a spot in CUNY. Where one goes, that is to a four year or community college depends upon the above. Back in my day the senior colleges (four year schools) only basically required one graduate with a high school average of 80% or better. That wasn't working out and thus again see the above.

    How classes and such are taught does vary in the CUNY system by which type of school one attends. For instance at Hunter-Bellevue IIRC the chemistry classes are not just pre-nursing and student nurses but (were) made up of all Hunter students studying health sciences. This included the "Pre-Health) majors such as pre-med, dentist and right down to physician assistant. On the ground this translated to chemistry courses taught at not always the 'chemistry for weeines" level some nursing students would like. This of course is natural for a four year college, but not all what some expect.


    Pre-nursing sequence for the ADN programs at each of the CUNY two year programs are basically the same with perhaps slight variations: Nursing

    To my knowledge not one of the ADN programs requires full organic chemistry, some may have a fundamentals of general and organic however. While NYS mandates organic chemistry for most if not all BofS candidates. Here is the recently revised Hunter-Bellevue School of Nursing curriculum: NEW GENERIC PATHWAY PROGRAM €” Hunter College
    Typically the remedial classes CC colleges offer are open to everyone, however not everyone is guaranteed the ability to take college level classes and progress to an associates degree, this appears to be no different in the case of CUNY.

    I picked a random NY ADN program; Borough of Manhattan Community College (BMCC), and it turns out they do require the same chem classes as the Hunter Bellevue BSN program, they just list them differently. The Hunter-Bellevue pre-reqs lists O-chem specifically, while the BMCC lists BIO 425 and 426, but you'll notice the same O-chem series that is listed in the Hunter Bellevue pre-reqs is a pre-req for the BIO 425 and 426 classes that BMC requires. The only difference appears to be that Hunter-Bellevue adds a requirement of 1 course of US history.
    Susie2310 and PMFB-RN like this.
  6. Visit  DoGoodThenGo profile page
    0
    Quote from MunoRN
    Typically the remedial classes CC colleges offer are open to everyone, however not everyone is guaranteed the ability to take college level classes and progress to an associates degree, this appears to be no different in the case of CUNY.

    I picked a random NY ADN program; Borough of Manhattan Community College (BMCC), and it turns out they do require the same chem classes as the Hunter Bellevue BSN program, they just list them differently. The Hunter-Bellevue pre-reqs lists O-chem specifically, while the BMCC lists BIO 425 and 426, but you'll notice the same O-chem series that is listed in the Hunter Bellevue pre-reqs is a pre-req for the BIO 425 and 426 classes that BMC requires. The only difference appears to be that Hunter-Bellevue adds a requirement of 1 course of US history.
    Yes, in theory remedial classes are open to any CUNY student the goal is for at least recent high school graduates to arrive either a two or four year college ready to work on that level. There has been much noise of late regarding the numbers of NYC high school grads arriving at CUNY requiring remedial classes, some quite extensive. CUNY’s Remediation Needs Remediation | EdVox

    Rise in remedial enrollment noted at CUNY, SUNY | Baruch Ticker - Baruch Connect

    Things got so bad that the head of CUNY basically took the NYC Department of Education to task essentially telling them to pull up their socks and stop graduating students that were not prepared.

    Should also note that as of 2001 CUNY senior/four year colleges no longer offer remediation classes. If one cannot pass and or otherwise demonstrate competence in Math or English (see above) you can either take an immersion class or remedial classes at a community college or part of an associate degree program elsewhere, then transfer.

    CUNY Trustees Approve Resolution To End Remediation in Senior Colleges

    Regarding chemistry, at least for CUNY community colleges things are varied. While BMCC does require organic, neither College of SI, Queensborough, nor Meger Evers. The last three have various general chemistry or physics classes however.

    The debate about how much science a nurse should know is one that has been going on for years so doubt you and I will solve it, *LOL*. Some in the profession seem to feel all professional nurses prepared on at least the BSN level should have strong exposure to sciences.

    http://www.aacn.nche.edu/education-r...sentials08.pdf
  7. Visit  Esme12 profile page
    5
    Quote from lmccrn62
    The studies have shown better patient outcomes in those patients cared for by BSN. Aiken has done plenty if these studies herself. One cannot convince non-BSN that BSN is preferred. We need to look to better our profession then fight about it among ourselves.
    Right.....the person performing the study has a vested interest...for me that is a conflict of interest and the study to me looses it's objectivity of truthfulness and accuracy.

    I do believe the best thing is going to be on level entry if only so we can stop beating this dead horse........and I also believe that in this horrible job market that there are some markets that are being selective to the BSN.

    Having been a nurse my self for 34 years......I was ADN entry. MY BSN added nothing to my experience but how to better navigate the internet and take online courses. To me it added NOTHING to make me a better nurse....but that was before all this push for BSN entry and the dumbing down of the bedside nurses role saying that physical assessment is an "advanced skill" and suddenly without mounds of debt you could no longer be a clinical Spec or manager.

    I think that we had better leadership when those at the top had already put in their time and had been a bedside nurse....and was promoted because of their experience and exemplar reputation as a nurse first that learned how to be a boss.....than someone who couldn't stand bedside nursing so they went back to school to become the boss and tell everyone what evidence based practice is even though they have never practiced the evidence.
  8. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    1
    Right.....the person performing the study has a vested interest...for me that is a conflict of interest and the study to me looses it's objectivity of truthfulness and accuracy.
    *** Not just you.

    I was ADN entry. MY BSN added nothing to my experience but how to better navigate the internet and take online courses. To me it added NOTHING to make me a better nurse....
    *** Mine was even worse. I am pretty sure I got dumber while "earning" my BSN. I certainly missed out of some real world experience and applicable training while I was writing a paper about what it was like to walk around with a golf ball in my hand and a sock over it.

    but that was before all this push for BSN entry and the dumbing down of the bedside nurses role saying that physical assessment is an "advanced skill" and suddenly without mounds of debt you could no longer be a clinical Spec or manager.
    *** Ah, not just me who feels the staff nurse's roll has been dumbed down.

    I think that we had better leadership when those at the top had already put in their time and had been a bedside nurse....and was promoted because of their experience and exemplar reputation as a nurse first that learned how to be a boss.....than someone who couldn't stand bedside nursing so they went back to school to become the boss and tell everyone what evidence based practice is even though they have never practiced the evidence.
    *** Tell it sister!
    Szasz_is_Right likes this.
  9. Visit  PinkNBlue profile page
    0
    Love the last post above mine (darn phone didn't let me quote it). So so true.
  10. Visit  sallyrnrrt profile page
    5
    after diploma school grad. i went directly into critical care ccu, eighteen months later i was director of ER, and nurse clinician program, where i took select critical care nurses, and with enhanced physical assessment skill, taught by me and ER docs, we preformed all the ER PATIENT HISTORY abd PHYSICALS! the only time a physician saw the patient, was if we felt admission to inpatient was not warranted.......we also had them sign prescriptions for medications etc.... later i was director of ER in Wash.DC, head nurse at texas heart center st. lukes in houston, director of nursing at several LTCs..... no telling what I coukd have acheived if I had a BSN.........
  11. Visit  Szasz_is_Right profile page
    3
    Quote from Esme12
    I think that we had better leadership when those at the top had already put in their time and had been a bedside nurse....and was promoted because of their experience and exemplar reputation as a nurse first that learned how to be a boss.....than someone who couldn't stand bedside nursing so they went back to school to become the boss and tell everyone what evidence based practice is even though they have never practiced the evidence.
    Only those who worked during this time can truly appreciate the difference.
    sallyrnrrt, DoGoodThenGo, and nursel56 like this.
  12. Visit  adnrnstudent profile page
    0
    When the ADN-BSN becomes something more than the ability to write papers, I may consider one. For now, my BS in another field will do as will my MBA. I had BSB embroidered on my scrubs so I can look as ridiculous as people who put BSN on theirs since nursing is the only field I know of that actually puts they have a B.S. on their title.

    That 1 article that states better outcomes for BSNs can be explained by social class. ADNs with BS in another field probably have just as good as outcomes as BSNs. Things have changed since that study. When it was done, BSNs probably had better outcomes because BSNs at the time probably came from higher social class families where caring and good parenting were easier for parents because they had better resources. Today, you have ADNs such as myself that are career changers and we have BS in other fields and we came from good social class too. I'm guessing our outcomes just as good and probably better because ADNs are better clinically trained than traditional BSNs.

    Nursing education has been hijacked by scholars who like to write articles, books, and hear themselves talk. ADN-BSN is the only degree I know other than journalism where writing is so important. Me, like other scientific minds don't give a toot about the ability to write a paper and I simply don't write them. I can't enter any class where a paper is more than 5% of the total grade. That way, I can get an F on the paper, and still get an A in the class. Us ADHD males hate papers.

    Since 60% of new grads are ADNs, I think any hospital that accepts Medicare/Medicaid payments should be forced to hire ADNs. ADN programs are giving people a new start on life; it gave me 1 after 15 years as a pharmaceutical rep. State governments interested in training it's residents would be wise to force hospitals to abandon the useless Magnet crap and hire ADNs. Hospitals are already talking dropping magnet over cost and absolutely no increase in business. Magnet is a waste of resources.

    You know, I'm going to say it. I think Magnet status is racist and I'm Caucasian. I live in Chicago burbs and when I think of all the African-American ADNs that graduated from city colleges that can't get jobs in hospitals and they're trying to better their lives. I think I figured it out.......Magnet is pure racism!
    Last edit by adnrnstudent on Jul 4, '13
  13. Visit  PMFB-RN profile page
    1
    When the ADN-BSN becomes something more than the ability to write papers, I may consider one.
    *** that will never happen.

    That 1 article that states better outcomes for BSNs can be explained by social class. ADNs with BS in another field probably have just as good as outcomes as BSNs. Things have changed since that study. When it was done, BSNs probably had better outcomes because BSNs at the time probably came from higher social class families
    *** I m EXTREMELY skeptical that high nurses from higher social classes are in some way better or result in lower mortality among their patients.

    Nursing education has been hijacked by scholars who like to write articles, books, and hear themselves talk.
    *** Yes it certainly has.

    Since 60% of new grads are ADNs, I think any hospital that accepts Medicare/Medicaid payments should be forced to hire ADNs. ADN programs are giving people a new start on life; it gave me 1 after 15 years as a pharmaceutical rep.
    *** We need to stop marketing nursing as a field were people can count on getting a new start in life, regardless of the number of people for whom that is true (including me). There are so many people being deliberately lured into nursing with the false and self-serving "nursing shortage" propaganda that soon it won't be able to offer that new start in life. That of course IS the goal of those putting out the false propaganda.

    You know, I'm going to say it. I think Magnet status is racist and I'm Caucasian. I live in Chicago burbs and when I think of all the African-American ADNs that graduated from city colleges that can't get jobs in hospitals and they're trying to better their lives. I think I figured it out.......Magnet is pure racism!
    *** Yes Magnet is useless and the good news is that hospitals are already starting to drop it. However since Magnet DOES NOT require hospitals to hire only BSN grads, or any percentage of BSN grads and never has for staff nurses (geeze that myth just won't die).
    If anything the push for BSN and entry to practice isn't racist, it's sexist. The vast majority of males entry nursing through ADN programs. Think how many of those pesky male nurses we could eliminate if we got ride of their primary way for them to enter the field.
    Kencanwin likes this.


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