ADN's being pushed out - page 28

by pammc000

I work for a large Magnet hospital. As nursing becomes more popular, and nurses not in short supply, I have noticed something ominous has being going on lately. Several of our older and very seasoned ADN nurses are being fired.... Read More


  1. 0
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Right. A choice. Try to apply to CEO positions with an associates degree and then demand that they should pay for your MBA. There is currently a neurosurgeon job open at a major hospital here? Apply and then demand they pay for your med school! These positions require advanced schooling because they have tremendous responsibility. Can you name another profession with more direct responsibility for human lives that has anything less than a masters?

    I am sorry that people are unwilling to make sacrifices to be the best nurse they can be. It's embarrassing to explain to patients why nursing has so many levels of entry because it basically boils down to two reasons: convenience of the nurse or nursing as a task-based profession. Neither are best for the patient.
    You can't even begin to compare your analogies. ADNs and BSNs do the same job, period. They are requiring more schooling to perform the sane job functions, unlike your med school example.
  2. 4
    Quote from SleeepyRN
    You can't even begin to compare your analogies. ADNs and BSNs do the same job, period. They are requiring more schooling to perform the sane job functions, unlike your med school example.
    As an LPN, one of the few left, working in an ER I find it funny listening to my co-workers. One is an ASN with 23 years ER experience and 8 years ortho. Yet one major hospital system has blatantly denied her ASN experience preferring s new grad BSN.

    Funny bc the last two BSNs we hired were shortly fired after PO Benadryl was inadvertently administerd IVP, IV abx were d/c'd prior to completion and discharged, an IV was inserted backwards, zofran was taught to the pt as an abx rather than an anti-emetic, etc.... Yes these were VERY recent mistakes that led to new grad BSN discharges from employment out of my ER. Surely new grad BSNs have so much more to offer than those experienced ASN's, am I right?

    Oh then there's the new grad MSN F-NP preparing for her boards. She's rattling off level one hundred microbiology stuff to reinforce her knowledge before sitting for her exams. At one point she says, "what's tetanus?" I respond, "a gram positive spore forming anaerobic rod!" Ha! Something I actually remembered from LPN school!!! She's certainly impressed. But then she goes on to discuss all the various PNA's and their causative agents. Srsly not a shocker. What!? Did her NP classes just reinforce what micro 101 suggested, or perhaps the more in depth functions of all 12 cranial nerves and how to test them in ANP201. I'm currently not impressed with any of this material that qualifiers as "furthered / continued education" bc it's all seemingly the same stuff no one seemed to grasp the first time around that I as an LPN endured during my own training. It's just further redundancy!

    My own manager wasn't even aware that I, as an LPN, created care plans in school. Ridiculous, I'm a very attentive student and while I struggle in a structured lecture environment, I thrive in a hands on environment.

    I am going to be an ASN RN this time in 2014 and dread the ongoing educational inflation going on. I am terrified and upset and feel severe angst to think my 4 years of ER LPN experience, drawing ABG's, interpreting EKGs, starting Iv's for those less competent through our my entire hospital, administering blood products (under my own license) and performing CBI's, and performing NG tube insertions will be meaningless because I possess a mere associate degree.

    Does a BSN grad know to question the doctors order when he only orders an abdominal CT for suspected diverticulitis. Does a new BSN know to ask the doctor if he also wanted a pelvis ct with that?

    It's not just the degree but also experience that matters!! I am flustered to think that same hospital demanding a BSN in 5 years of hiring has also just gotten rid of their shift differentials! The market for RNs is so saturated, not only can the employer demand the highest degree, but also pay less!

    Yes, Magnet indeed, We attract and retain our nurses well. They are all satisfied with their lower pay and more expensive student loans.
    Last edit by libran1984 on May 21, '13
    montecarlo64, applewhitern, Meriwhen, and 1 other like this.
  3. 0
    ADNs and BSNs may do the same job but hospitals still prefer BSN degree holders especially those with years of experiences
  4. 2
    Quote from libran1984

    As an LPN, one of the few left, working in an ER I find it funny listening to my co-workers. One is an ASN with 23 years ER experience and 8 years ortho. Yet one major hospital system has blatantly denied her ASN experience preferring s new grad BSN.

    Funny bc the last two BSNs we hired were shortly fired after PO Benadryl was inadvertently administerd IVP, IV abx were d/c'd prior to completion and discharged, an IV was inserted backwards, zofran was taught to the pt as an abx rather than an anti-emetic, etc.... Yes these were VERY recent mistakes that led to new grad BSN discharges from employment out of my ER. Surely new grad BSNs have so much more to offer than those experienced ASN's, am I right?

    Oh then there's the new grad MSN F-NP preparing for her boards. She's rattling off level one hundred microbiology stuff to reinforce her knowledge before sitting for her exams. At one point she says, "what's tetanus?" I respond, "a gram positive spore forming anaerobic rod!" Ha! Something I actually remembered from LPN school!!! She's certainly impressed. But then she goes on to discuss all the various PNA's and their causative agents. Srsly not a shocker. What!? Did her NP classes just reinforce what micro 101 suggested, or perhaps the more in depth functions of all 12 cranial nerves and how to test them in ANP201. I'm currently not impressed with any of this material that qualifiers as "furthered / continued education" bc it's all seemingly the same stuff no one seemed to grasp the first time around that I as an LPN endured during my own training. It's just further redundancy!

    My own manager wasn't even aware that I, as an LPN, created care plans in school. Ridiculous, I'm a very attentive student and while I struggle in a structured lecture environment, I thrive in a hands on environment.

    I am going to be an ASN RN this time in 2014 and dread the ongoing educational inflation going on. I am terrified and upset and feel severe angst to think my 4 years of ER LPN experience, drawing ABG's, interpreting EKGs, starting Iv's for those less competent through our my entire hospital, administering blood products (under my own license) and performing CBI's, and performing NG tube insertions will be meaningless because I possess a mere associate degree.

    Does a BSN grad know to question the doctors order when he only orders an abdominal CT for suspected diverticulitis. Does a new BSN know to ask the doctor if he also wanted a pelvis ct with that?

    It's not just the degree but also experience that matters!! I am flustered to think that same hospital demanding a BSN in 5 years of hiring has also just gotten rid of their shift differentials! The market for RNs is so saturated, not only can the employer demand the highest degree, but also pay less!

    Yes, Magnet indeed, We attract and retain our nurses well. They are all satisfied with their lower pay and more expensive student loans.
    LOVE your post. Most of the time I state my opinion about degree differences, I always seem to get the response "well BSNs are more well rounded and able to think more critically." I don't have a BSN yet, but I do have life experience and over 120 credit hours from a previous degree. I'll get my BSN and be proud of it, but I do not buy into the notion that it makes one a better nurse. So much more goes into what makes a nurse a good nurse than an extra management class or an extra research class. Your story is a PERFECT example.
    applewhitern and sallyrnrrt like this.
  5. 1
    Quote from brandy1017
    To BostonFNP some of your comments do sound like criticism toward those of us who choose not to go on and get more education. Learning is great, but it doesn't have to happen just in college. Nurses don't have to become BSN to be good nurses as you seem to believe. Honestly I think nurses can learn on their own by keeping up with the latest research and knowledge in nursing journals, medical journals, and becoming certified in their field. I don't think there is any magic in a BSN that makes a nurse suddenly better, as though those who are ADN"s are inferior and selfish for choosing not to go back to school.

    The comment why would a hospital pay to put a person thru medical school is ridiculous and doesn't pertain to a nurse already working in her field, already qualified with a license to be told to go back to school and take out massive student loans just because the hospital wants a BSN for magnet status! When the hospital requires nurses to have certain things like ACLS or certifications they pay for it! Obviously a BSN costs a lot more than ACLS. If a hospital wants BSN's they can obviously hire them from the get go and encourage their nurses to go back to school. Although in my experience hospitals want nurses with maximum flexibility and availability to work, not nurses needing time off for school.

    There is more to life than school, and people don't have unlimited money to go to school and ignore the rest of their personal/family responsibilites. Many of the new BSN nurses where I work are jumping back into school to get their NP to get away from the hospital and have a better job. I don't blame them, but I don't envy their $100,000+ student loans they are taking out just assuming everything will work out and they will automatically get that great job. I don't believe there are enough jobs out there for everyone going to NP school.

    I know how difficult it has been for me to pay back my student loans and they were only around $25,000 and years later I'm still paying them off. There are many older nurses out there where it would be financially insane to go back to school and take out student debt when they should be saving for retirement and unexpected health costs and they won't have the time to pay the loans off before retirement. You are telling them they should drop everything and go back to school just to have a BSN because without it they are inferior and not good enough. Even going back to school won't guarantee they won't lose their job either by being fired or laid off or due to an accident or illness that leaves them unable to work. Yet the student loans have to be paid, there are no consumer protections or bankruptcy options with student loans. Many nurses are single mothers struggling to pay the bills and the last thing they can afford to do is go back to school, consider yourself lucky that you have the opportunity!
    I especially think it is foolhardy to go back to school and take out student loans when you are unemployed or disabled because there is no guarantee you will get another job and be able to pay the loans off. I've read posts of people who went back to school in the hopes of getting a new and better job and I fear for their future. If they don't succeed they will not be able to walk away from the student loans and will see any wages garnished, tax returns taken, professional license withheld even social security and disability garnished. People need to be aware of the dangers of student loans and make a truly informed choice not blindly go back to school. If consumer protections and bankruptcy options were restored to student loans then going back to school would be easier and not so dangerous as it is now, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    Another awesome post on this topic. I agree 100%. I'm going back for my BSN but only because its becoming a requirement where I live. Do I think I will learn some things? Yes. Do I think it will make me a better nurse? Heck no. Certifications, experience, continuous research as you stated (don't need school to do your own research). THAT'S what makes you a better nurse. I don't disrespect BSNs or look down on them. Only the snotty ones.
    sallyrnrrt likes this.
  6. 2
    Quote from amygarside
    ADNs and BSNs may do the same job but hospitals still prefer BSN degree holders especially those with years of experiences
    The point was regarding hospitals paying for their ADNs to go back to school. If I work in a hospital as an ADN, then am told I need to get a BSN, (but continue to perform the same duties as a BSN) then heck yeah the hospital should pay for it.
    PMFB-RN and sallyrnrrt like this.
  7. 0
    Brandy,

    I'm glad to hear from nurses like you who are wise enough to see right through all this higher degree garbage. As I've said time and time again; the majority of those driving and in favor of higher degree pushes are those who are in some way affiliated with the higher education system. One of their main pieces of ammunition is; look what it did for PT, OT and Pharmacology. The only thing it did was keep students in school longer and increase their loan debt. Another reason it was done was to try to make these professions sound more doctor-like in the hopes of being able to vie for a higher pay scale. The majority of PTs and OTs out there have gone through entry-level master's programs. The only reason to go for the doctorate is to possibly teach at a four year university. A young woman who recently graduated from Pharmacology said that when the extra year was tacked on, the courses she had to take had nothing to do with Pharmacology. They were art courses. Her parents were furious that she had to take out another $40,000 in loans for that. I've argued before that in looking over the curriculum for many RN-BSN programs, I saw courses such as Theoretical Nursing Foundations, Current Issues and Research. These are all areas that are incorporated into any A.S. or ADN program. There is nothing new learned that in any way will help patients on the floor. And if nurses are keeping up with their CEUs as required by law, they are on top of the current issues. Maybe some nurses can afford to go back for an almighty BSN. Maybe some nurses have other obligations such as family. And maybe some nurses would just like to work and enjoy their free-time when not working. Whatever reason, it is and should always remain their choice and not the choice of a group of venal, self-serving academic elitists. They just can't stand the fact that A.S. and ADN nurses are well educated to meet current as well as the future demands of the nursing profession. What does it bother them so much? It doesn't bother me that they haven't touched a real patient in a dog's age and can still renew their licenses and call themselves nurses by taking 30 CEUs on the computer every two years.
  8. 0
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Brandy,

    I'm glad to hear from nurses like you who are wise enough to see right through all this higher degree garbage. As I've said time and time again; the majority of those driving and in favor of higher degree pushes are those who are in some way affiliated with the higher education system. One of their main pieces of ammunition is; look what it did for PT, OT and Pharmacology. The only thing it did was keep students in school longer and increase their loan debt. Another reason it was done was to try to make these professions sound more doctor-like in the hopes of being able to vie for a higher pay scale. The majority of PTs and OTs out there have gone through entry-level master's programs. The only reason to go for the doctorate is to possibly teach at a four year university. A young woman who recently graduated from Pharmacology said that when the extra year was tacked on, the courses she had to take had nothing to do with Pharmacology. They were art courses. Her parents were furious that she had to take out another $40,000 in loans for that. I've argued before that in looking over the curriculum for many RN-BSN programs, I saw courses such as Theoretical Nursing Foundations, Current Issues and Research. These are all areas that are incorporated into any A.S. or ADN program. There is nothing new learned that in any way will help patients on the floor. And if nurses are keeping up with their CEUs as required by law, they are on top of the current issues. Maybe some nurses can afford to go back for an almighty BSN. Maybe some nurses have other obligations such as family. And maybe some nurses would just like to work and enjoy their free-time when not working. Whatever reason, it is and should always remain their choice and not the choice of a group of venal, self-serving academic elitists. They just can't stand the fact that A.S. and ADN nurses are well educated to meet current as well as the future demands of the nursing profession. What does it bother them so much? It doesn't bother me that they haven't touched a real patient in a dog's age and can still renew their licenses and call themselves nurses by taking 30 CEUs on the computer every two years.
    Do you have any evidence for any of these statements, or is it all just personal opinion?
  9. 2
    My question is this: how in the H-E-double hockey sticks do you insert an IV backwards?? Sorry, just had to interrupt.

    And I'll say - in BOLD, no less - that slagging us BSNs and calling our degrees 'all-mighty BSNs' makes a person no better than the ones who slag on AD/ASNs.

    All that does is make you sound, well, jealous and that you hold a sub-standard view of your own education (and you shouldn't), which I don't think you are, but you're coming across that way. It's equally petty.

    I have plenty of opinions on this that I keep to myself - but now that I know there are ASSOCIATE DEGREE PROGRAMS FOR PAs, who are meant by definition to be extensions of doctors (would you want someone with an associate's education medically diagnosing YOUR problems? I surely wouldn't!), I'm giving up hope for our multi-degree problem.

    All this infighting just makes us look like biddies with nothing else to do - a bunch of women arguing over what's black and what's white - and it seriously makes us look very, very unprofessional when it turns into mudslinging or screams of 'my education's better than your education'.

    There is one indisputable fact: a bachelors degree is higher on the education scale than an associates. There's no changing that fact. It's true, whether we like it or not. The AD is seen as a technical degree - regardless of what sort of education you got. That's the perception. You can wax eloquent on whether that makes it less than or equal to the education a BSN RN gets all day, but it doesn't change that simple fact. It's why I didn't get an ADN and why I got an ABSN.

    I don't care about the details right this second - but the problem stems from the public's (and yes, the academic's) perception of a two year degree (I don't care how long it took you - if you want to get technical, it took me about seven and a half years to get my BSN, because I have a prior BS, I took about two years of nursing specific prereqs, and then 16 grueling months of a BSN program - an associates is viewed as a two year degree).

    As I've oft been told in my life, perception, unfortunately, is one hundred percent of the perceiver's reality.

    Also, and I'm just guessing - because at the end of the day, if I'm the patient I really don't care what bloody degree or diploma my RN has as long as she's licensed and knows what the hell she's doing - there's more in the BSN classes than can be gleaned from a course description. I have an AS degree from a community college and I'm proud of it - but I wouldn't say my AS is equivalent to a general BS in Liberal Arts from a four-year institution because I know it's not, even if all they did was take a few higher-level history classes and a couple of psych courses more than me (which that is what that is - I know, I have a BSL!).

    They're not equivalent outside of nursing. They can't possibly be equivalent inside either, or they wouldn't exist. Look at diploma programs. They're dying for a reason (not all of them the right reasons!) and I do know that a lot of them have turned to offering some sort of associates degree in conjunction with the RN diploma, even if it's not in nursing. There's a reason for that - they had to survive and keep up with the times.

    To further the argument - and to further immerse myself in hot water - I took research classes to get my BSN. In fact, in my program, it was a GRAD level analytical stats course and a GRAD level research and development course: I designed a mock study, wrote a proposal, did a metasearch, and presented findings and evidence for my own study, just like the grad students did. We took the same class. I was taught in both classes how to interpret research. I don't think there's much of that in ADN courses (and I'm not slagging them for it - it's a different degree). The HUGE thing now is EBP and its application. If you can't interpret and analyze research, then apply it within your place and scope of practice, you can't carry out effective EBP. THAT'S why we take all these research courses. They're not fluff. They serve a purpose. They're part of our job, especially as BSN prepared RNs. I actually do this all the time at work - I'm expected to, and not just because I'm an officer. This isn't fluff work - it's a skill, it's expected, and it's vital to us at all levels if we're going to continue to advance the profession. There's little time to hone these skills in two years, much less even get exposure to them. It's the way it works.

    I wouidn't try to justify the existence of an associate RN degree by saying maybe some nurses like their free time, and I wouldn't call out managers who no longer work at the bedside, because some of them are also ADN folks who have put in their time and no longer do direct patient care, and renew their licenses in exactly the way you speak of as a result.

    And PharmD's - the entry level degree for pharmacists, not pharmacologists - take a lot more than arts classes. I cannot imagine why you were told that. Pull a course of study for, say, UNC or the Massachusetts College of Pharmacy (one of the top schools in the nation) and look at the classes required for completion. They're not basketweaving. They're advanced pharmcokinetics and biopharmaceutics courses. (I toyed with pharmacy school for a while, even took a year of o-chem and the PCAT and blew it out of the water, and then decided I wanted more people time than what they get. Even though MCP recruited me like no one's business and offered me money to go there.)

    There's a professional way to pursue this debate without mudslinging.

    I think a signified difference between ADNs and BSNs should exist, and I'm not saying that just because I'm a BSN. I thought that when I was first looking at schools and I was shocked when there wasn't. I think ADNs have a place and I think BSNs have a place.

    For the record, my 'backup' school was a local diploma program, not the local ADN programs, with a plan to go RN-MSN after about two years. I felt the diploma program was harder than the ADN program from things I'd been told and I wanted the challenge. Plus, I already had a BS with classes in Calculus and Statistics, had taken a year of O-chem and a year of Gen Chem, and the ADN program was trying to force me to take college algebra and some other ridiculous basic chemistry course (ridiculous for someone with two years in the subject) with a 4.0 combined GPA. For what? To get my money? It sounded that way to me, and, uh, I think not. The diploma program and their affiliated school for the associates in applied science took all of my credits except one (I can't remember what it was - it certainly wasn't a math or science class!) and they told me with my academic record to CLEP it. That's reasonable to me.
    Last edit by carolinapooh on May 24, '13
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  10. 2
    Quote from carolinapooh
    My question is this: how in the H-E-double hockey sticks do you insert an IV backwards?? Sorry, just had to interrupt.

    And I'll say - in BOLD, no less - that slagging us BSNs and calling our degrees 'all-mighty BSNs' makes a person no better than the ones who slag on AD/ASNs.


    All that does is make you sound, well, jealous and that you hold a sub-standard view of your own education (and you shouldn't), which I don't think you are, but you're coming across that way. It's equally petty.

    I have plenty of opinions on this that I keep to myself - but now that I know there are ASSOCIATE DEGREE PROGRAMS FOR PAs, who are meant by definition to be extensions of doctors (would you want someone with an associate's education medically diagnosing YOUR problems? I surely wouldn't!), I'm giving up hope for our multi-degree problem.
    I'm not entirely sure what made her insert the IV backwards. It was very unusual and we had to take it out.

    Regarding the Assc PA programs, I do believe they require a previous bachelor's degree in another science related field. So it's almost like a Master's degree- 6 years of actual schooling. I would, personally, be quite comfortable with an Assc degree PA acting as my provider knowing this information.
    sallyrnrrt and besaangel like this.


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